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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old August 1 2013, 02:51 PM   #46
Timo
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

But those are probably reserved for the other 200,000 people already...

Logically, the Cardassian occupiers would have had all sorts of energy production schemes for their own purposes. And since they were the bad guys, these schemes probably were maximally polluting, unsustainable and so forth. When the orders came to withdraw, they'd scuttle as many of these powerplants as they could, as this would be an easy way to do maximum harm to Bajor; others would simply be left behind.

The moon-burning scheme could well be among the abandoned Cardassian projects easiest to restart; if it wasn't finished, there would have been little point in sabotaging it at departure!

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Old August 1 2013, 03:15 PM   #47
Bad Thoughts
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Timo wrote: View Post
But those are probably reserved for the other 200,000 people already...

Logically, the Cardassian occupiers would have had all sorts of energy production schemes for their own purposes. And since they were the bad guys, these schemes probably were maximally polluting, unsustainable and so forth. When the orders came to withdraw, they'd scuttle as many of these powerplants as they could, as this would be an easy way to do maximum harm to Bajor; others would simply be left behind.

The moon-burning scheme could well be among the abandoned Cardassian projects easiest to restart; if it wasn't finished, there would have been little point in sabotaging it at departure!

Timo Saloniemi
I don't doubt that Cardassians would do things on the cheap, without regard to the consequences to the Bajorans. I don't think that there is any clear indication that the Cardassians were insensitive or oblivious to environmental concerns, and certainly, they would be exposing themselves, as colonizers, to whatever environmental sideeffects are caused by their energy projects. On the other hand, Cardassians do seem to be most concerned about efficiency, and I would expect them to squeeze out power from all available sources rather than engage in risky or speculative ventures.

My disbelief is aroused more by the need to transport this power. Anything that would bring the power from the moon to the planet would be cheaper and easier to achieve by transporting energy from one side of the planet to the other, no?

Ultimately, this was an overreach by the writers. It's a plot that is not well suited for a space opera that takes places over huge swaths of space.
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Old August 1 2013, 05:12 PM   #48
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Timo wrote: View Post
But those are probably reserved for the other 200,000 people already...
I'd have to go back and revisit the episode. But why do these 200,000 homes have no power? How long had they been without power already? If it had been more than a year, how did they survive past winters?
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Old August 1 2013, 06:31 PM   #49
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

It likely hadn't been more than a year since the Withdrawal was less than a year old at that point.

Perhaps when the Cardassians left they simply did a very thorough job of destroying whatever mechanisms had been used to power these homes previously.
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Old August 1 2013, 07:05 PM   #50
Timo
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Anything that would bring the power from the moon to the planet would be cheaper and easier to achieve by transporting energy from one side of the planet to the other, no?
I don't really think so - it's a long way around the planet, while a moon might be just a thousand kilometers away.

Besides, we never saw any "power line" technology on Bajor. Supposedly, power transfer is wireless to begin with, and a hop from the fifth moon to the surface would just call for a higher voltage or cochranage or whatnot.

Perhaps when the Cardassians left they simply did a very thorough job of destroying whatever mechanisms had been used to power these homes previously.
Or perhaps these homes were part of a Cardassian industrial project that folded when the occupiers left, and were totally dependent on power bled off from the industrial process - which no longer is running, and cannot be run with the existing resources. Such homes would be rather fundamentally different from self-sustaining farms or even from pre-occupation urban housing, but might be commonly found all over Bajor.

Remember that the Cardassians left in immense hurry, not even having time to properly destroy all property left behind. Yet somehow they found time to salt the fields to total infertility, as described in "Shakaar"! It thus appears that this salting was a longterm project, part of a master plan to render Bajor uninhabitable outside easily controllable urban centers. Dependence on resources that no longer were there at the start of season 1 would be a pretty natural part of Bajoran reality, IMHO.

It is equally possible that 200,000 Bajorans returned from their offworld exodus within the first season, and needed housing ASAP...

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Old August 2 2013, 03:43 PM   #51
Bad Thoughts
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Timo wrote: View Post
Anything that would bring the power from the moon to the planet would be cheaper and easier to achieve by transporting energy from one side of the planet to the other, no?
I don't really think so - it's a long way around the planet, while a moon might be just a thousand kilometers away.
Such a moon might be so close to the planet that it would lose all its atmosphere, making the question of future habitability moot.
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Old August 2 2013, 04:51 PM   #52
Timo
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

It's rather unlikely that any of the Bajoran moons, let alone all five of them (cf. palukoos on all of them), would be habitable "naturally". Perhaps Bajorans terraformed them for their own needs some time in the past, perhaps Cardassians idly practiced their terraforming skills... It might be relatively simple to reintroduce a habitable biosphere in the future, too.

Sure, it looked somewhat difficult and time-consuming in "Home Soil", but it might help when you have another Class M world right next door. And it wouldn't have to be permanent.

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Old August 7 2013, 01:56 PM   #53
picsiskvinechef
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Short-term needs often preclude long-term ones. and?

Bajor may be a similar size to Earth, but perhaps fewer people live there. Maybe only 2/3 billion, which of course is small by real life standards.

So if Bajor has 10 moons, meh, one can be sacrificed for short-term needs.
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Old August 8 2013, 01:49 AM   #54
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

I love DS9 but this is one of those moments that are kind of laughable. They pretty much wipe out one moon for what appears to be a minor net-gain. I read somewhere, I forgot where, that the Bajorans were also using the same method the Klingons used on Praxis. Um...seriously? I can't remember this episode much, so I don't recall if that is something from the episode or from a book. But if it was from the episode, why the hell would Starfleet allow that?

"I can't allow you to use those unsafe mining methods on Jeraddo." - Sisko
"And why not?" - Bajoran Minister
"Ever heard of Praxis?" - Sisko
"No." - Bajoran Minister
"I rest my case." - Sisko

This is one of those times where Federation technology is way too advanced. I'm sure Federation worlds have means of providing energy to homes in a rather simplistic manner. Excluding technology that could temper the weather (Earth does have that), how could the Federation not have the resources to provide to Bajor? It makes no sense.

So far the only counter-argument I've heard is that the Bajorans rejected it out of pride/stubbornness. I don't buy that at all. They're constantly shown accepting industrial replicators and other badly needed resources for their world. They can't figure out some means of assistance, even if temporary until the Bajorans are on their own two feet? Isn't that the mission of the Federation's presence there? It'd make no sense for the Provisional Government to request Federation assistance and then out of stubborn pride, bulk at the notion getting help from DS9.
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Old August 9 2013, 07:11 PM   #55
Timo
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

It's rather consistent that the Federation has limited resources when it comes to the outer colonies, would-be members and whatnot. Bajor does get industrial replicators, but only four of them, after years of waiting... So there's probably a long list of hopeful recipients, and only so many of these miracle machines to go around.

However, the tapping of the moon is Federation aid, at least after a fashion:

"Station log. Stardate 46844.3. With the help of the Federation, Bajor is about to commence its first large-scale energy transfer, the tapping of the molten core of its fifth moon, Jeraddo. "
I don't quite get the "short term gain" talk here, either. What is "short term" about this moon-tapping project? As far as the episode dialogue goes, it could keep going for all eternity. It doesn't pollute, it doesn't fluctuate, it doesn't run out.

As for whether it's going to keep 200,000 households warm over the winter or five million households supplied in holographic entertainment and food replicators, the episode does not tell. Making those households survive the season is among the benefits, but nothing about the dialogue suggests that this would be the limit of the benefits.

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Old August 10 2013, 02:23 AM   #56
U.S.S.Unicorn
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

If there was no other way to get the energy so all those people don't die then it was right to ruin the moon but the idea that that was the only way seems implausible. It's vague in the episode what exactly they're trying to do, something about taping the core that will ruin the planet. How would they transport this energy all the way to Bajor? In what form is this energy? That seems very inefficient.

Could the Federation, one of the biggest powers in the galaxy, seriously not get enough energy and supplies to help save their ally? An important ally at that due to the wormhole.

In-universe this could probably be explained by the Bajoran government having no clue what they're doing or the Federation being bureaucratic assholes and forcing them to screw up their moon. Neither seem very far off, but for them both to so incompetent is crazy.

This episode is moving but based on an illogical premise.

Timo wrote: View Post
I don't quite get the "short term gain" talk here, either. What is "short term" about this moon-tapping project? As far as the episode dialogue goes, it could keep going for all eternity. It doesn't pollute, it doesn't fluctuate, it doesn't run out.

As for whether it's going to keep 200,000 households warm over the winter or five million households supplied in holographic entertainment and food replicators, the episode does not tell. Making those households survive the season is among the benefits, but nothing about the dialogue suggests that this would be the limit of the benefits.

Timo Saloniemi
I agree, we don't know if the benefits are only short-term. However, the Bajorans only seem to be consider the short-term in their arguments ("I refuse to allow three stubborn holdouts to jeopordize a project that will benefit so many of our people. "-Toran). Note the words "so many", not all. So while we don't know for sure, the text implies that this energy source has its limitations.

However, there are many far better ways to get that energy and I would think a habitable planet using the slower energy gathering method would have many more benefits in the long-term assuming someone could get their act straight so the immediate drilling is unneeded.
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Old August 10 2013, 05:18 AM   #57
wingsabre
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

I just rewatched the episode. I'm not sure if I missed it, but they never said that the drilling would poison the entire atmosphere. They just said atmosphere. It's reasonable to imply that it would only affect a region on the moon, and the region chosen had some ideal quality to it. IMO, it would be similar to being near an erupting volcano. The fumes are toxic, but live far enough, it wont affect you.
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Old August 10 2013, 08:35 AM   #58
The Emissary
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Timo wrote: View Post
It's rather consistent that the Federation has limited resources when it comes to the outer colonies, would-be members and whatnot. Bajor does get industrial replicators, but only four of them, after years of waiting... So there's probably a long list of hopeful recipients, and only so many of these miracle machines to go around.

However, the tapping of the moon is Federation aid, at least after a fashion:

"Station log. Stardate 46844.3. With the help of the Federation, Bajor is about to commence its first large-scale energy transfer, the tapping of the molten core of its fifth moon, Jeraddo. "
I don't quite get the "short term gain" talk here, either. What is "short term" about this moon-tapping project? As far as the episode dialogue goes, it could keep going for all eternity. It doesn't pollute, it doesn't fluctuate, it doesn't run out.

As for whether it's going to keep 200,000 households warm over the winter or five million households supplied in holographic entertainment and food replicators, the episode does not tell. Making those households survive the season is among the benefits, but nothing about the dialogue suggests that this would be the limit of the benefits.

Timo Saloniemi
While you make a good point that the lack or limited Federation assistance is consistent with what we've seen, it never made any sense.

Unfortunately, the utopian idea that Earth has all these super tech that solves all problems makes it kind of hard to stomach there are any Federation colonies or allies in dire need of this stuff.

Why did Bajor get so few industrial replicators? Is such technology difficult to manufacture? How does Starfleet had limited resources when they can make stuff out of thin air? It never really made sense.

Surely the UFP has portable heaters (we have something like that NOW) for each home in this area of Bajor to help them. Standard food replicators. They could easily survive with that until a better solution was made to get energy.
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Old August 10 2013, 11:26 AM   #59
Timo
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Note the words "so many", not all. So while we don't know for sure, the text implies that this energy source has its limitations.
Every source does. I still don't see any "short term" implication in any of this - merely the rightful pointing out that a stubborn loner should step aside for the greater good, even if "greater" meant two beneficiaries rather than 200,000 or 2 billion. Mullibok is just being mean and selfish here.

However, there are many far better ways to get that energy
How so? We aren't given any indication of a superior method.

and I would think a habitable planet using the slower energy gathering method would have many more benefits in the long-term assuming someone could get their act straight so the immediate drilling is unneeded.
"Slower energy gathering" means low power, so that makes no sense. As for the immediateness of the drilling, there are no negative aspects to that. The faster it's over, the better. Why delay, when the end result is going to be the same anyway?

Why did Bajor get so few industrial replicators? Is such technology difficult to manufacture?
Dramatically speaking, it would have to be. Otherwise, our heroes would never have any adventures: they could just press a button and replicate a dozen thingamabobs that would solve all the problems and have all the fun.

If industrial replicators were trivially easy to manufacture (industrially replicate!), the Federation should rightfully have thirty quadrillion starships rather than just a few thousand. Or if it didn't have those yet, it should have the means to create them overnight when something like the Borg or the Dominion comes a-knocking.

The Federation simply isn't like that. It is limited in its manufacturing abilities; its homeworlds have well-working infrastructures, but its outer holdings still struggle (often by choice, but nevertheless).

Surely the UFP has portable heaters (we have something like that NOW) for each home in this area of Bajor to help them. Standard food replicators.
Yup. And the ecologically safe, steady long term power source for those technologies is the Jerrado power tap. Coming to them this fall, courtesy of your friendly Provisional Government (with backing from the Federation).

Why waste time and money with silly temporary measures when you can have a proper solution right away?

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Old August 11 2013, 03:29 AM   #60
The Emissary
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Timo wrote: View Post
Why did Bajor get so few industrial replicators? Is such technology difficult to manufacture?
Dramatically speaking, it would have to be. Otherwise, our heroes would never have any adventures: they could just press a button and replicate a dozen thingamabobs that would solve all the problems and have all the fun.

If industrial replicators were trivially easy to manufacture (industrially replicate!), the Federation should rightfully have thirty quadrillion starships rather than just a few thousand. Or if it didn't have those yet, it should have the means to create them overnight when something like the Borg or the Dominion comes a-knocking.

The Federation simply isn't like that. It is limited in its manufacturing abilities; its homeworlds have well-working infrastructures, but its outer holdings still struggle (often by choice, but nevertheless).

Surely the UFP has portable heaters (we have something like that NOW) for each home in this area of Bajor to help them. Standard food replicators.
Yup. And the ecologically safe, steady long term power source for those technologies is the Jerrado power tap. Coming to them this fall, courtesy of your friendly Provisional Government (with backing from the Federation).

Why waste time and money with silly temporary measures when you can have a proper solution right away?

Timo Saloniemi
I agree with you that clearly the Federation cannot manufacture all this stuff with ease, but no reason is ever given. Where does this limit on industrial replicators come from? Is it the energy required? (Which I imagine is different for hull plating vs. a dinner roll) It just seems like plot convenience. I wish they more accurately described the limitations of Trek in this capacity a bit more.

Because the "proper solution" is going to make one of your moons inhabitable and wreck it. Unless they were planning to terraforming Jeraddo later on...
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