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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old July 27 2013, 09:57 PM   #31
SeerSGB
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Oh it's a good episode, one of the better early ones. It's just when you start discussing the logic behind the in--universe decision to frag a moon for such a relatively low number of people that you go "the fuck?"

Timo wrote: View Post
There is most probably a major difference in logistics and costs between providing 200,000 homes with a piece of technology, and providing them with energy for their existing pieces of technology. Even sending a new stove to each of the homes might be more demanding than hooking them up to the Jerrado power.

This early in the show, Bajor probably has little or no industrial capacity for anything, be it stoves or solar panels; it's possible that the Jerrado project is only possible because it was something the Cardassians initiated and never got the chance to finish, but never got the incentive to scuttle when withdrawing, either...

That's speculation. What's known about existing assets is that Bajor operates large troop-carrying starships, as seen in "Past Prologue" already and demonstrated more clearly in "The Circle"/"The Siege". Those things don't need industrial support in order to move 200,000 homes to more hospitable climes, or 200,000 homefuls of firewood to the putative disaster area (more like a housing project from the sounds of it).

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Thing is that nuking the moon would be a bigger undertaking (even if the Cardies started the job) than just replicating some solar panels or--as you suggested--relocating people. Even a combination of the two options, would be less work and cost than converting Jerrado.

Logically battery tech should be well advanced in ST's time. Why not replicate some XL Duracells to help out the people.
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Old July 28 2013, 12:54 AM   #32
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Another thing to keep in mind - Bajor had more than one moon.
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Old July 28 2013, 01:48 AM   #33
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
They never heard of solar panels?
Those things that don't work very well in the middle of winter above a certain latitude?

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Old July 28 2013, 04:09 AM   #34
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Also here's the thing. Then heated homes are just the tip of the iceberg, the most imminent need. This energy would also bring the same homes electricity, and also bring it to the machinery to build the infrastructure that could make the planet prosperous.

I can't imagine anybody objecting to harming a moon very few people actually wanted to live on in order to bring energy to impoverished homes totally lacking it who has ever been without their creature comforts.
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Old July 28 2013, 04:12 AM   #35
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

T'Girl wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
They never heard of solar panels?
Those things that don't work very well in the middle of winter above a certain latitude?

By modern day tech. You're going to tell me that in 300 years the ST universe never advanced the tech behind the 20th/21st century levels?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Also here's the thing. Then heated homes are just the tip of the iceberg, the most imminent need. This energy would also bring the same homes electricity, and also bring it to the machinery to build the infrastructure that could make the planet prosperous.

I can't imagine anybody objecting to harming a moon very few people actually wanted to live on in order to bring energy to impoverished homes totally lacking it who has ever been without their creature comforts.
There's quicker, more efficient means of getting that power though.
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Old July 28 2013, 07:17 AM   #36
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
There's quicker, more efficient means of getting that power though.

Perhaps not on Bajor, who's resources are spread pretty thin so soon after the occupation.
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Old July 28 2013, 07:50 AM   #37
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Mage wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
There's quicker, more efficient means of getting that power though.

Perhaps not on Bajor, who's resources are spread pretty thin so soon after the occupation.
Battery tech, solar tech should all be fairly easy for a typical replicator. If they've got the tech to use a moon for energy, then replicating a few 24th C. Duracells and solar panels or Mr. Fusions would be a walk in the park. The govt. could do it all in bulk, then transport or shuttle over to the affected areas.

It has nothing with preserving the moon, it's that they over thought the problem.

Granted, that goes back to one my issues with TNG era Trek: With the replicator, the problems like what Bajor went through shouldn't really exist. Or where they did exist easily addressed.
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Old July 28 2013, 09:15 PM   #38
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Another thing to keep in mind - Bajor had more than one moon.
...Although funnily enough, even the locals don't seem to know how many. Jerrado was the fifth, but in "The Nagus" a textbook said Bajor has just three moons!

Then again, Bajoran culture really is ancient. Perhaps the book was written before there was a fifth moon?

Battery tech, solar tech should all be fairly easy for a typical replicator.
There's no solid proof that Bajor would have had even one food replicator at that time, though. We only saw replicators on the space station, where they were said to all have been sabotaged by the departing Cardassians and were only slowly returning to service thanks to O'Brien's brave efforts. Creating multiple examples of anything (the replicator forte), even things as simple as solar panels or stoves, might thus be massively more difficult than creating a single geothermal powerplant and its power transfer systems.

(Not that solar panels would do any good in keeping houses warm through a winter. Even if they were infinitely efficient, they'd only gather as much sunlight energy as falls on them during that winter - and that amount does not keep anything warm, or else there wouldn't be a winter in the first place. We're talking about devoting massive areas per each house to solar energy gathering, so massive that it would again be cheaper to just relocate these people. Plus making the houses winter-secure, which would solve most problems without the need for imported energy.)

That the Jerrado project would be a solution to a problem is obvious (the Bajorans cannot afford to do anything that wouldn't solve problems). That it would be a solution to the problem of providing power to 200,000 households is a possibility. That it would be a necessary solution for keeping those million people alive is completely speculative. Sure, keeping the houses powered up through he winter is a known consequence of the project - but it's probably just a side effect of keeping them, and fifty million others, powered up for the next thousand years.

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Old July 29 2013, 02:34 AM   #39
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Here's another little oddity that muddies up the waters:

Jeraddo is Bajor's fifth moon, hence Lunar V.

Less than a year later in "The Siege", not only do Kira and Dax retrieve an old fighter from a hidden Resistance base on Lunar V, but the surface is far from uninhabitable - the Palukoos are still living there.
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Old July 29 2013, 03:13 AM   #40
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Lunar VI exploded but somehow nobody noticed. They were planning to test some kind of new device on Lunar VI. I think it was called Exodus or Leviticus or something like that. Mr. Roarke was pissed.
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Old July 29 2013, 03:15 AM   #41
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Why would we assume that Lunar V is the same body as Jeraddo?
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Old July 29 2013, 10:43 AM   #42
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

The same reason Earth's moon is alternatively called the moon or Luna in Trek depending on who you ask?
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Old July 29 2013, 10:49 AM   #43
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

But Lunar V could simply mean the fifth Luna base.
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Old July 29 2013, 12:35 PM   #44
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Indeed, "Lunar V" doesn't really convince me as the name or designation of the fifth moon; it sounds like it would be the fifth something that is lunar by nature or location.

However, since it is the Resistance's name for the base, it's probably obscure and even deliberately misleading. Perhaps it refers to the Lunar Five who died valiantly trying to blow up the Mining Supervisor's privy?

...the surface is far from uninhabitable - the Palukoos are still living there.
Actually, they are only seen to live under the surface, where the fighter is stashed.

Interestingly, "the Bajoran moons" are supposed to be full of them, indicating all (five?) of them. Does this mean all (five?) are or were habitable? Or do the habitability standards of palukoos fall far below those of other lifeforms?

Since Bajorans are ancient, and might be ancient as spacefarers as well, it's quite possible they had three moons, then terraformed all of them and captured or built two more - and then abandoned them after finding much better things to do, such as a new type of rhythmically accentuated poetry.

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Old August 1 2013, 02:39 PM   #45
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Really seems like there would be simpler planetside means of getting energy to 200,000 people.
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