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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old July 27 2013, 03:26 PM   #16
Edit_XYZ
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

You_Will_Fail, I take it you never went through a winter without adequate heating and plenty to eat.
Far from being absurd, one winter is more than enough to kill you.
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Old July 27 2013, 03:34 PM   #17
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Well duh, of course people can die in harsh winters, but it's not worth destroying such a huge piece of land for.
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Old July 27 2013, 03:34 PM   #18
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

I wonder how bad the moon was since it seems Kira and Dax were able to return several months later and along with the local giant spiders seemed to get around without much of an issue.

It isn't at all surprising that the government did this. They are first post Cardassian government trying to rule a fairly fractured population. Do you think that 200,000 homes will just accept the lack of heat? There would be civil unrest and chaos if the government didn't do something. In the end short term stability over possible (some small plot farmers survived, but that doesn't mean it would necessarily be suitable for large scale argi or that projects on the moon are necessarily better than sorting out those on Bajor itself) long term gains won out...so very unrealistic indeed.
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Old July 27 2013, 03:40 PM   #19
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
Well duh, of course people can die in harsh winters, but it's not worth destroying such a huge piece of land for.
If destroying the land is the only option for ~500000 people to survive - YES, their survival is worth it.

I see you disagree - does this mean that, in real life, you would be ready to commit suicide, along with your family, in order to save a few trees?
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Old July 27 2013, 03:46 PM   #20
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Your argument is flawed. There would have been alternatives available.
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Old July 27 2013, 03:49 PM   #21
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
Your argument is flawed. There would have been alternatives available.
Except, as per the episode writers' intent, there weren't.
As such, it is your argument that is flawed - unless you do think that you and your family committing suicide in order to save a few trees is worth it.
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Old July 27 2013, 05:47 PM   #22
You_Will_Fail
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Committing suicide is different from a government decision that leads to civilian death/suffering.
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Old July 27 2013, 05:55 PM   #23
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
Committing suicide is different from a government decision that leads to civilian death/suffering.
Yeah, the decision that would lead to the mass death/suffering is not harvesting that energy as not to inconvenience a few people.
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Old July 27 2013, 08:16 PM   #24
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Don't need to be mean to the trees, rocks, and scrub brush. What's 200,000 cold Bajorans to dirt.
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Old July 27 2013, 09:12 PM   #25
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

R. Star wrote: View Post
How's this much more different the the government claiming imminent domain on all land around a river so they can dam it and supply power to thousands if not millions? I agree they didn't think the numbers through, but that's relatively minor.
Well for one there is supposed to be some kind of legal proceeding the government has to go through first unless they already made an agreement with the owner of the property in question. Whereas in this case the guy living on the moon didn't seem to have known about the Bajoran government's plans for the moon until the episode in question (unless I'm remembering it wrong).

Which kind of makes it look like they're being douchy about it.
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Old July 27 2013, 09:15 PM   #26
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Let's remember that the Bajorans never had any use for that habitable moon during their millennia of civilization - the first-ever settlers apparently only arrived during the Cardassian occupation, Mullibok being the very first at episode-minus-forty-years. The moon's biosphere was worthless to them for most of their history, and apparently still worthless to all of them but Mullibok at the time of the episode.

We know Bajorans colonize; at least the post-occupation Bajorans do, both within their own system ("Past Prologue") and outside (from refugee settlements in "Ensign Ro" to staking claims in Gamma later on). Yet Jerrado for some reason held no interest to them. Moreover, there were parts of Bajor itself that remained uninhabited despite being habitable ("Sanctuary"). We can count out various reasons to hold on to Jerrado's jungles, then: Bajorans don't have any shortage of jungles, Bajorans don't want to conquer every tessipate of land out there, and Bajorans have their choice of habitable territory even without Jerrado.

On the other side of coin, freezing to death in winter is not a realistic prospect with the numbers and facts given. We have no reason to think these beneficiaries of Jerrado energy would be in dire straits; Toran says the plan is to heat some houses, but somehow those houses were heated in the preceding year, decade and century already.

Nor is it realistic to assume anybody would die (except out of suicidal tendencies - c.f. Mullibok!) even if their lives depended on receiving power. If the winter is so severe as to threaten their survival lest the houses be heated by a specific type of power, then the winter isn't providing them with any sustenance; they might just as well move out to a more hospitable part of the planet. A thousand-mile exodus is a relative triviality various elements of humanity have survived easily enough, often multiple times in a row, without the benefit of a militia apparently well supplied in spacecraft and capable of moving 200,000 people in a matter of weeks if need be. Hell, these people could be moved to Jerrado without much trouble!

Heating those homes is just a convenience and a politically driven project, not a matter of life and death, unless something is kept hidden from us here. It's just that the other side of the equation doesn't amount to much, either: Bajorans do not have a particular need or love for Jerrado. Possibly they even want the damned thing rendered uninhabitable as soon as possible, so as to eradicate the evidence of Cardassian presence there (we never learned whether their mining projects, mentioned by Mullibok, actually came to anything).

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Old July 27 2013, 09:33 PM   #27
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

I'm pretty sure that the problem was with the episode: the writer is going too far to make an environmental conflict meaningful in a one-shot episode of a sci-fi series. As much as cities and states make stupid planning decisions, trading immediate benefit for short term benefit, the structure of the crisis in the episode is implausible. The numbers don't add up: they are going too far and too much to an extreme for something that could be resolved with some temporary migration. It might be cheaper to replicate firewood. Indeed, these sorts of decisions go forward in the real world because the environmental consequences won't be immediately visible.

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Old July 27 2013, 09:38 PM   #28
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Forget the moon or fusion reactors: They never heard of solar panels? Quicker, cheaper, and could be deployed to a lot more homes, and isolated so that if someone attacks one it doesn't knock it all out. Just grab an industrial replicator or two, load it up in a cargo shuttle, fly from location to location replicating a generator in a box: beam down, turn on.

For all it's "Wow, they're so advanced!". Star Trek races and powers, seem to lack common sense.

Edit: Hell, I even over thought. Screw the shuttle, just set up production areas n the affected areas, replicate or on an orbital station, transporter over the location.
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Old July 27 2013, 09:48 PM   #29
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

There is most probably a major difference in logistics and costs between providing 200,000 homes with a piece of technology, and providing them with energy for their existing pieces of technology. Even sending a new stove to each of the homes might be more demanding than hooking them up to the Jerrado power.

This early in the show, Bajor probably has little or no industrial capacity for anything, be it stoves or solar panels; it's possible that the Jerrado project is only possible because it was something the Cardassians initiated and never got the chance to finish, but never got the incentive to scuttle when withdrawing, either...

That's speculation. What's known about existing assets is that Bajor operates large troop-carrying starships, as seen in "Past Prologue" already and demonstrated more clearly in "The Circle"/"The Siege". Those things don't need industrial support in order to move 200,000 homes to more hospitable climes, or 200,000 homefuls of firewood to the putative disaster area (more like a housing project from the sounds of it).

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Old July 27 2013, 09:52 PM   #30
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Re: So Bajor made one of it's moons uninhabitable for some energy

Well, I don't know about in-universe explanations and all of that, but it was one of my favorite early episodes. Great performances by Nana Visitor and Brian Keith. And the unresolved way the episode ends...I love it. You really feel for both Mullibok and Kira.
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