RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 143,884
Posts: 5,638,621
Members: 25,494
Currently online: 469
Newest member: T'Cairn

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: The Dogs of War
By: Michelle on Mar 28

Takei Calls For Boycott
By: T'Bonz on Mar 27

April-May 2015 Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Mar 27

Quinto TV Alert
By: T'Bonz on Mar 26

Shatner Remembers Nimoy
By: T'Bonz on Mar 26

Star Trek Delta Coin Pouches
By: T'Bonz on Mar 25

Takei Museum Fundraiser In Progress
By: T'Bonz on Mar 25

Star Trek 3 Villain?
By: T'Bonz on Mar 25

Montgomery Comic Book Signing
By: T'Bonz on Mar 24

Mulgrew To Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Mar 24


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Voyager

Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 17 2007, 05:38 PM   #1
asp7485
Lieutenant Commander
 
ENDGAME - Good ensemble piece!

I just realized what a great ensemble show "Endgame" turned out to be. Most everyone, even the characters that were largely overlooked in the series run, gets their moment in the finale.

Chakotay - the romance plot with Seven and indications that his change after Seven's death had a huge impact on Janeway

Tuvok - the neural disease storyline gives us two great scenes! One with Admiral Janeway saying goodbye and another with Captain Janeway when she learns of his illness.

Harry - We get to see him as a captain! He has good scenes with Admiral Janeway and the speech in the briefing room about the journey.

Tom & B'elanna - They have their baby! This moment really resonates with me.

Seven - Obviously she was heavily featured with a romance and the news she will die.

Janeway - TWO Janeways in one episode! What could be better? Mulgrew does a phenominal job in her scenes with herself.

The only person who comes up a little short is the Doctor. He's in a good deal of the finale, but doesn't contribute to the story as much. This is fine, however, since he had "Renaissance Man" the episode before and was focused on very heavily throughout the series. I do wish Neelix could've been on the ship in the last episode, but he had a very nice send-off.

Another thought...on the Chakotay/Seven romance. At first, I really didn't like this choice, but when I saw "Endgame" again, I started enjoying their scenes. It makes a nice end for Seven, showing her really delving into human relationships, understanding their importance, and giving us an indication of where she's going in the future. She lets down her guard a bit with Chakotay, something that was nice to see.

When it first aired, I didn't find Endgame to be all that spectacular. Watching it again, I've come to appreciate it for it's focus on the Voyager ensemble and the slick way it wraps things up.

-Aaron
asp7485 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2007, 06:09 PM   #2
exodus
Fleet Admiral
 
Location: The Digital Garden
Re: ENDGAME - Good ensemble piece!

I disagree.

The whole ep. was about Janeway(pick a version), so once again even during the final show the rest get shafted. In 7 years of watching the characters and the semi-conclusion we got for Tuvok, Paris, Be'Lanna, Chakotay & Seven was half assed.

Besides, the scenes with Tuvok & Harry are from a future that will never happen. So as a whole, we watched nearly two hours of nothing. It was a slap in the face to the audience, the actors and the show in general. I think if Voyager had a stronger ending, many fans probably would have easily forgiven mistakes made in the show along the way.
__________________
A Tiger doesn't loose sleep over the opinion of sheep.
exodus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2007, 06:17 PM   #3
Squiggy
Rampant Sexist
 
Squiggy's Avatar
 
Location: Up Squiggy's Coal Chute.
View Squiggy's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to Squiggy
Re: ENDGAME - Good ensemble piece!

Then you must've hated "All Good Things..." as well.
__________________
ENOUGH OF THIS TURGID BASH WANKERY!
Squiggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2007, 06:20 PM   #4
The Borg Queen
Rear Admiral
 
The Borg Queen's Avatar
 
Location: Does it matter?
Re: ENDGAME - Good ensemble piece!

asp7485 said:
Another thought...on the Chakotay/Seven romance. At first, I really didn't like this choice, but when I saw "Endgame" again, I started enjoying their scenes. It makes a nice end for Seven, showing her really delving into human relationships, understanding their importance, and giving us an indication of where she's going in the future. She lets down her guard a bit with Chakotay, something that was nice to see.
It seemed a pretty convoluted way of getting Seven to delve into a relationship, considering there was no chemistry between her and Chakotay. It seemed to have been thought up out of thin air just for the sake of it, for the finale.
__________________
.
The Borg Queen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2007, 07:02 PM   #5
HLecter,MD
Captain
 
Re: ENDGAME - Good ensemble piece!

I liked it because it had Kate Mulgrew's best acting performance as her older self. I loved her scenes with the Borg queen when she sneered, "It must be something you assimilated."
HLecter,MD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2007, 07:20 PM   #6
mvkemp
Rear Admiral
 
Location: College Park, MD
Re: ENDGAME - Good ensemble piece!

exodus said:
Besides, the scenes with Tuvok & Harry are from a future that will never happen. So as a whole, we watched nearly two hours of nothing.
I disagree with your disagreement. Just because the characters themselves won't experience that future, we the audience get to know more about them. The show isn't written for the benefit of the characters, but the benefit of the audience.

Besides, you get a sense of what the Voyager characters will go through when they get home, even if the details are changed. Harry as a starship Captain. Is that really going to change? Tom as a holo-novelist and B'Elanna as an ambassador. Do you think they won't go down the same path. The Doc working at Starfleet medical and getting married? I'm pretty sure that the paths of all the charaters will be very similar to what was seen in Admiral Janeway's time.
__________________
Step 1: Invade Iraq.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Victory!

"Even Richard Nixon knew it was time to resign." KO
mvkemp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2007, 07:22 PM   #7
mvkemp
Rear Admiral
 
Location: College Park, MD
Re: ENDGAME - Good ensemble piece!

asp7485 said:
Most everyone, even the characters that were largely overlooked in the series run, gets their moment in the finale.
Poor Reg though. 33 years later and he's only been promoted from Lieutenant to Commander.
__________________
Step 1: Invade Iraq.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Victory!

"Even Richard Nixon knew it was time to resign." KO
mvkemp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2007, 07:37 PM   #8
exodus
Fleet Admiral
 
Location: The Digital Garden
Re: ENDGAME - Good ensemble piece!

mvkemp said:
exodus said:
Besides, the scenes with Tuvok & Harry are from a future that will never happen. So as a whole, we watched nearly two hours of nothing.
I disagree with your disagreement. Just because the characters themselves won't experience that future, we the audience get to know more about them. The show isn't written for the benefit of the characters, but the benefit of the audience.

Besides, you get a sense of what the Voyager characters will go through when they get home, even if the details are changed. Harry as a starship Captain. Is that really going to change? Tom as a holo-novelist and B'Elanna as an ambassador. Do you think they won't go down the same path. The Doc working at Starfleet medical and getting married? I'm pretty sure that the paths of all the charaters will be very similar to what was seen in Admiral Janeway's time.
The one thing most all sci-fi shows, movies, books or whatever agree upon is that the future isn't written in stone. There is just as much possability that nothing we saw will ever happen just as it's possable it could. Any number of things could happen during the time they return home to the possable future we saw. Saving Seven & Chakotay alone would change it and have a diverse effect on the rest as well.

Besides, in 7 years when did Paris ever display any talent for writing or expressed any desire to do so? It was the EMH & Tuvok that wrote a holo-novels or scenarios, not Tom. He didn't write Capt. Proton nor was there any story written involving Fair Heaven.
__________________
A Tiger doesn't loose sleep over the opinion of sheep.
exodus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2007, 07:48 PM   #9
mvkemp
Rear Admiral
 
Location: College Park, MD
Re: ENDGAME - Good ensemble piece!

exodus said:
Any number of things could happen during the time they return home to the possable future we saw.
You're absolutely right. But we saw what happened to them under a defined set of circumstances and now we know that particular outcome. We don't need to know explicitly what happens in their futures, but the glimpses we get of it, gives an idea of what can happen, and in this case, what's probably likely to happen when we think what might have been.

Maybe instead of a holonovelist, Tom does it as a hobby while really working on new starship designs or teaching piloting techniques. I don't think the specifics of it are important, but it gives you an idea of what kind of person he could become.

It's a lot easier to fit a bunch of people's ideas of what happens when they get home if it's never really set in stone.
__________________
Step 1: Invade Iraq.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Victory!

"Even Richard Nixon knew it was time to resign." KO
mvkemp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2007, 07:52 PM   #10
mvkemp
Rear Admiral
 
Location: College Park, MD
Re: ENDGAME - Good ensemble piece!

exodus said:
Besides, in 7 years when did Paris ever display any talent for writing or expressed any desire to do so? It was the EMH & Tuvok that wrote a holo-novels or scenarios, not Tom. He didn't write Capt. Proton nor was there any story written involving Fair Heaven.
I'm not sure if he didn't write Proton. I thought it was maybe Proton was there, but Tom created the actual stories played on the holodeck.

And Tom expressed interest in writing holonovels when they discovered Tuvok's incomplete training program, when they were all running it and it suddenly stopped, the one Seska took over.
__________________
Step 1: Invade Iraq.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Victory!

"Even Richard Nixon knew it was time to resign." KO
mvkemp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2007, 08:00 PM   #11
exodus
Fleet Admiral
 
Location: The Digital Garden
Re: ENDGAME - Good ensemble piece!

mvkemp said:
exodus said:
Any number of things could happen during the time they return home to the possable future we saw.
You're absolutely right. But we saw what happened to them under a defined set of circumstances and now we know that particular outcome. We don't need to know explicitly what happens in their futures, but the glimpses we get of it, gives an idea of what can happen, and in this case, what's probably likely to happen when we think what might have been.

Maybe instead of a holonovelist, Tom does it as a hobby while really working on new starship designs or teaching piloting techniques. I don't think the specifics of it are important, but it gives you an idea of what kind of person he could become.

It's a lot easier to fit a bunch of people's ideas of what happens when they get home if it's never really set in stone.
I personally feel Starship design would be more fitting and in character for.......well, the character.


Squigglyfm , I loved "All Good Things.." I found it to be an extremely clever story while also being a story that comes full circle. However, unlike Voy. we already knew in advance that this wasn't going to be the last time we saw TNG crew. Also TNG did more fleshing out of it's characters than Voy. did. By the time Voy. ended, you still knew almost nothing about Neelix beyond his family dying, very little about Tuvok or Chakotay especially what they did during their "off" hours on the ship. I don't think we had such questions when it came too Riker, La Forge or even Crusher.
__________________
A Tiger doesn't loose sleep over the opinion of sheep.
exodus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2007, 08:16 PM   #12
mvkemp
Rear Admiral
 
Location: College Park, MD
Re: ENDGAME - Good ensemble piece!

exodus said:
Also TNG did more fleshing out of it's characters than Voy. did. By the time Voy. ended, you still knew almost nothing about Neelix beyond his family dying, very little about Tuvok or Chakotay especially what they did during their "off" hours on the ship. I don't think we had such questions when it came too Riker, La Forge or even Crusher.
Maybe Chak got a little screwed, but you knew about his father, growing up and his time in the Maquis. We got to know just as much about Neelix as we did about Riker, LaForge and Crusher. How he met Kes, how his fmaily died, fighting in the war, running a scrungy salvage ship, cooking, etc. With Riker, you know he hated his dad and his mom died, and he's from Alaska. How much else was there? La Forge, some about his family and one previous assignment. Tuvok has a family and several children, plays CalToh and meditates. You get to know about at least two previous assignments and that he left starfleet and came back.

You find out at least as much about the Voy characters than you did about the TNG ones.
__________________
Step 1: Invade Iraq.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Victory!

"Even Richard Nixon knew it was time to resign." KO
mvkemp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2007, 08:59 PM   #13
exodus
Fleet Admiral
 
Location: The Digital Garden
Re: ENDGAME - Good ensemble piece!

mvkemp said:
exodus said:
Also TNG did more fleshing out of it's characters than Voy. did. By the time Voy. ended, you still knew almost nothing about Neelix beyond his family dying, very little about Tuvok or Chakotay especially what they did during their "off" hours on the ship. I don't think we had such questions when it came too Riker, La Forge or even Crusher.
Maybe Chak got a little screwed, but you knew about his father, growing up and his time in the Maquis. We got to know just as much about Neelix as we did about Riker, LaForge and Crusher. How he met Kes, how his fmaily died, fighting in the war, running a scrungy salvage ship, cooking, etc. With Riker, you know he hated his dad and his mom died, and he's from Alaska. How much else was there? La Forge, some about his family and one previous assignment. Tuvok has a family and several children, plays CalToh and meditates. You get to know about at least two previous assignments and that he left starfleet and came back.

You find out at least as much about the Voy characters than you did about the TNG ones.
Maybe it's just me(..and it very well could be)but I felt I still knew more about Riker professionally & personally than I did about Tuvok. I had a more rounded picture of Riker's motivations, career goals, inspirations & passions than Tuvok. While I understand Tuvok was Vulcan and they are very reserved there has to be more of what he does than Cal'Toh & meditate. I'm nitpicking I know, however I just felt there was more to be told and explored with and about him. For an example: What would make a Vulcan take such a job as head of security. I think it's an interesting contradiction based on what we know of Vulcan's, for example.
__________________
A Tiger doesn't loose sleep over the opinion of sheep.
exodus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 19 2007, 05:02 AM   #14
gblews
Rear Admiral
 
gblews's Avatar
 
Location: So. Cal.
View gblews's Twitter Profile
Re: ENDGAME - Good ensemble piece!

HLecter,MD said:
I liked it because it had Kate Mulgrew's best acting performance as her older self. I loved her scenes with the Borg queen when she sneered, "It must be something you assimilated."
Agree. Mostly I found Mulgrew's performances frenetic, bordering on hysterical, the hand waving, gesturing, mugging, body contortions, and that funny whisper she would do, just distracted the hell out of me.

But in Engame I saw almost none of this, especially from Admiral Janeway. Mulgrew was intense (as Captain and Admiral) without feeling the need to punctuate that intensity by narrowing her eyes and hissing. I was pleasntly surprised (haven't seen the episode since it originally aired).

A word about C/7, the first time I saw the episode I was as much WTF as everyone, but not so much anymore. If they were going to hook her up with a crewmate, C was the only real choice. The Doc's a hologram for godsake. But after watching the entire series again, I do note the strong Janeway/C set up and understand the anger from the folks who wanted to see that hook-up.

Finally, a Voy fan came into the ENT forum shortly after TaTV aired and thanked the gods for that episode because it relieved Endgame of the title of 'worst finale'. As a die hard ENT devotee and after seeing Endgame again, may I say, the NX'ers wear the crown proudly.
__________________
Duckman: I'll never forget the last thing my father said to me...
Cornfed: "Careful son, I don't think the safety's on"?
Duckman: BEFORE THAT!!!
gblews is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 1 2015, 02:56 AM   #15
ThankYouGeneR
Lieutenant Commander
 
ThankYouGeneR's Avatar
 
Re: ENDGAME - Good ensemble piece!

Endgame still continues to be among my favorite StarTrek episodes.

Above all it gave me a wonderfully satisfying ending to a series that continues to delight and inspire me.
ThankYouGeneR is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:38 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.