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Old March 11 2014, 12:15 AM   #106
Shaka Zulu
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Re: Cosmos - With Neil deGrasse Tyson

Yminale wrote: View Post
So why bring up Bruno up in the first place. Why not bring up the story of the invention of the telescope and Galileo. Oh no we can't because we would have to mention Arabs and their work in optics and that would make us un-American.
They'd also have to mention the Incas and the work of King Mongkut as well, and I doubt that they would do that.
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Old March 11 2014, 12:15 AM   #107
Ancient Mariner
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Re: Cosmos - With Neil deGrasse Tyson

Yminale wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
They're the minds behind Cosmos, but they need established TV talent to help them, and that's what MacFarlane and Braga are doing.
Dumbing down Cosmos does no one any favors. If Tyson and his gang wanted to remake Cosmos, they could have gone to PBS (you know like Carl Sagan). Of course no eye candy and no expensive perks for it's star.
In what way was the episode "dumb"? Because they chose to use dazzling special effects to visualize the science? All of the show's creators - from Tyson, to MacFarlane, to Druyan herself - they all explicitly say that showmanship is part of their intent with this series just as it was Sagan's intent with the original Cosmos. For its time, especially considering it was on PBS, Sagan's Cosmos was a very visual documentary because Sagan new that visuals were an excellent way to connect the audience to the science. That the new incarnation takes that philosophy and translates it into 21st century visuals, on a major broadcast network, doesn't mean the science has been dumbed down and, in fact, means that this incarnation is keeping with Sagan's own intent and approach for the series to begin with: to make science as engaging and accessible as possible.


Yminale wrote: View Post
Whatever. This show is crap and Tyson owes me one hour I lost watching it.
Well, no one's forcing you to watch the rest. I guess that means we'll be without your insight for the remainder of the series then.
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Old March 11 2014, 12:19 AM   #108
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Re: Cosmos - With Neil deGrasse Tyson

Yminale wrote: View Post
Then it's doomed to fail. As soon as you replace the CGI with real science, people will get bored and change the channel.
ZOMG! DOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMED!



After 30 years of bringing "science to the masses", guess what we've accomplished. NOTHING according to the latest studies. Americans are more ignorant now than in the time of Carl Sagan even though the public had access to more and better quality science shows.
There's no point in arguing with you. You became offended, and now you're on a tear to pull down the show when it's brand new. Have fun, but don't pretend you're either rational or objective about the whole thing.
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Old March 11 2014, 12:22 AM   #109
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Re: Cosmos - With Neil deGrasse Tyson

The CGI was just the fishhook. Some of the best quality space animation I have seen--and no anti-Braga jokes... so far, so good.

Now in Solar System depictions, we show the planets all in a line, close together to fit on the page...same deal here. No biggie.

COSMOS was actually meant by Ann to be something of a new spirituality.

This new COSMOS recaptured the majesty of the old. I've seen a lot of documentaries in my life that didn't have the sense of wonder I look for, and this new version re-captures that.

It expects that you've seen some of this before, and respects your intelligence.

So instead of showing the dino-killing asteroid strike directly for the umpteenth time, you just see Neil plug his ears and get a brief blast for humor.

Frankly, when his refit ship of the imagination reached Pluto--I was fully expecting him to wink at the audience.

Humanizing the science, ennobling it, and giving us a sweeping feeling a lot of documentaries lack--that is what COSMOS is known for. And both the old and the new gave me a greater feeling than I ever had in any church service in my youth--especially at the last, when it showed how Carl took time to write to Neil.

Neil was very adept at how he deals with certain issues. Zubrin, for example, would get in trouble talking about Columbus on the West Coast

If you want to talk about exploration, don't say one thing about Columbus (as he does too often)--you mention Zheng He, as did Niall Ferguson did in the PBS adaptation of his book Civilization.

You also noticed Neil showed the New World discovery all of one brief time.

On an interview on types of space travel (C-SPAN), Neil was asked a question about space elevators, and he simply replied that he was agnostic on the types of transport. The closest he ever got to the firestorm of spaceflight topics was that he wants a strong NASA and a suite of vehicles. That is as close as he ever got to advocacy, choosing not to get into the dirt. It gets hotter in Space Exploration here than it ever did in ATM--so no controversy as to the means of spaceflight.

That is the sign of Neil's emotional IQ--to avoid such controversies in order to get everyone interested in and accepting of the scientific method.

The play is the thing.

Ironically, Zubrin trashed the original COSMOS.. http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=23794
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Old March 11 2014, 12:29 AM   #110
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Re: Cosmos - With Neil deGrasse Tyson

Christopher wrote: View Post
Which explanation are you talking about? It sounds to me like you're confusing belief in God with belief in young-Earth Creationism, and nothing could be further from the truth. And there are many different ways of defining God beyond what's written down in a book somewhere. Even within a single religion, there are numerous interpretations of God, and of course there are many religions on this planet that do not count the Bible among their sacred texts.
I wasn't bringing up the geological record because of the creationism thing. But because it shows pretty clearly that the planet has gotten along perfectly fine without us for 99% of it's life. And has developed, evolved, and operated over those billions of years according to completely natural processes. As has the Universe before it.

So to suddenly leap to an otherworldly, supernatural explanation at the very start just defies everything else we've discovered. And ignores 13.8 billions years of evidence to the contrary. I just don't know how any scientist could make a leap like that.

As Tyon says, "There is no shame in not knowing. The problem arises when irrational thought fills the vacuum left by ignorance.”

And yeah I realize there are different interpretations of God out there, but generally it tends to be more than just an abstract concept to people. When people talk about "believing in God," it's usually because they're looking for something bigger than themselves that can somehow give their lives meaning. Which... might as well make it the traditional God of the Bible, as far as I'm concerned. It's still the same mindframe.
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Old March 11 2014, 12:32 AM   #111
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Re: Cosmos - With Neil deGrasse Tyson

davejames wrote: View Post
bigdaddy wrote: View Post
I hang out with a friend's friends / co-workers, all of them are physicists and 80-90% of them believe in God and are religious. Science still can not explain how everything started so you can be both. But you can't throw out science just because of religion.
I know science doesn't yet have all the answers, but it will always be baffling to me how any scientist can practice the scientific method or look at the geological record (where even in the reduced timescale of the Earth we humans only show up in the last two minutes of the day), and still hold onto such a simplistic and primitive explanation. Or think we have some "special connection" to the Creator of the Universe.

The possibilities of what could have "started" the Universe are so many that it seems bizarre to just narrow it down to one thing. Or to think that it must be a living entity of some sort that needs... worshiping.
The ones I have talked to just see the science as so complex and not following our basic understanding of the universe so they believe that something greater than us has started everything.

Begs the question where did this thing go for the last X years.
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Old March 11 2014, 12:37 AM   #112
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Re: Cosmos - With Neil deGrasse Tyson

Yminale wrote: View Post
After 30 years of bringing "science to the masses", guess what we've accomplished. NOTHING according to the latest studies. Americans are more ignorant now than in the time of Carl Sagan even though the public had access to more and better quality science shows.
So what, they should just not bother at all?? Simply preaching to the converted, or the kind of people who watch PBS, would have been the REAL waste here.
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Old March 11 2014, 12:48 AM   #113
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Re: Cosmos - With Neil deGrasse Tyson

bigdaddy wrote: View Post
The ones I have talked to just see the science as so complex and not following our basic understanding of the universe so they believe that something greater than us has started everything.

Begs the question where did this thing go for the last X years.
Well yeah clearly something started the process, but for all we knew it could have been simply another universe or some other natural phenomena. The need to ascribe some deeper meaning or intent to the process is where the problem comes in.

Might as well find meaning in the physical universe we actually know about and live in, I say.
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Old March 11 2014, 01:00 AM   #114
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Re: Cosmos - With Neil deGrasse Tyson

Ancient Mariner wrote: View Post
In what way was the episode "dumb"? Because they chose to use dazzling special effects to visualize the science?
Yes because real science isn't flashy. Last Friday I spent over 2 hours in the frigid cold looking at Jupiter. It was beautiful but it pales comparison to the fancy CGI in Cosmos. What kid would want to stay in the cold and look at Jupiter when he can watch the Disney version compete with imaginary creatures living in Europa.

All of the show's creators - from Tyson, to MacFarlane, to Druyan herself - they all explicitly say that showmanship is part of their intent with this series just as it was Sagan's intent with the original Cosmos.
Showmanship will only invite errors and myths like the asteroid field straight out of Star Wars.

doesn't mean the science has been dumbed down and, in fact, means that this incarnation is keeping with Sagan's own intent and approach for the series to begin with: to make science as engaging and accessible as possible.
History has shown that Sagan wasted his time.

Well, no one's forcing you to watch the rest. I guess that means we'll be without your insight for the remainder of the series then.
This show is as empty as Braga's head. No further comments are necessary.
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Old March 11 2014, 01:06 AM   #115
Yminale
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Re: Cosmos - With Neil deGrasse Tyson

davejames wrote: View Post
So what, they should just not bother at all??
If you tried something for 30 years and keeping getting poor results. Continuing doing so would be defined as being insane.

Simply preaching to the converted, or the kind of people who watch PBS, would have been the REAL waste here.
No it wouldn't. We would be entertained (and since I donated to PBS I would gain some value from my donation).
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Old March 11 2014, 01:15 AM   #116
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Re: Cosmos - With Neil deGrasse Tyson

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Have fun, but don't pretend you're either rational or objective about the whole thing.
When has criticism ever required rationalism or objectivity. Besides it's scientifically proven that anything Brannon Braga or Seth McFarlane does sucks.
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Old March 11 2014, 01:19 AM   #117
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Re: Cosmos - With Neil deGrasse Tyson

Yminale wrote: View Post
Yes because real science isn't flashy. Last Friday I spent over 2 hours in the frigid cold looking at Jupiter.
Congratulations. You win last Friday's Hard Science Award™ here at TrekBBS. We'd send you a medal but, being true to science, the knowledge and joy of your experience are all the award you need.

Yminale wrote: View Post
davejames wrote: View Post
Simply preaching to the converted, or the kind of people who watch PBS, would have been the REAL waste here.
No it wouldn't. We would be entertained (and since I donated to PBS I would gain some value from my donation).
As a point of fact, YOU (nor I, really) are not the primarily intended audience (the whole interview is good, but skip to 5:50 for the relevant exchange) for this series. Putting it on FOX means it has a greater potential to reach its intended audience.

Yminale wrote: View Post
It was beautiful but it pales comparison to the fancy CGI in Cosmos. What kid would want to stay in the cold and look at Jupiter when he can watch the Disney version compete with imaginary creatures living in Europa.

Showmanship will only invite errors and myths like the asteroid field straight out of Star Wars.
Actually, Sagan's Cosmos had many visual conceits of its own. Most science documentaries do. TV shows are, necessarily, about showmanship. And heck, Tyson even acknowledges that the depictions aren't to scale (such as the distance between worlds in the Oort Cloud). So ... I'm not seeing this as a problem in and of itself.

Yminale wrote: View Post
doesn't mean the science has been dumbed down and, in fact, means that this incarnation is keeping with Sagan's own intent and approach for the series to begin with: to make science as engaging and accessible as possible.
History has shown that Sagan wasted his time.


Alrighty.

Yminale wrote: View Post
Well, no one's forcing you to watch the rest. I guess that means we'll be without your insight for the remainder of the series then.
This show is as empty as Braga's head. No further comments are necessary.
I'll see you elsewhere around the boards, then.
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Old March 11 2014, 01:29 AM   #118
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Re: Cosmos - With Neil deGrasse Tyson

Crazy fools and their attempts to reach out to the layperson and get them interested in science. A fool's errand! A fool's errand I say! The people who emailed me asking me if I had seen the new Cosmos show, and whether that stuff was true or not, because it was awesome? The fools! The fools! Why even bother telling them it was true, they'll just watch it for the pretty colors! DOOMED, I SAY! WE'RE ALL DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMED!
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Old March 11 2014, 01:33 AM   #119
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Re: Cosmos - With Neil deGrasse Tyson

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Crazy fools and their attempts to reach out to the layperson and get them interested in science. A fool's errand! A fool's errand I say! The people who emailed me asking me if I had seen the new Cosmos show, and whether that stuff was true or not, because it was awesome? The fools! The fools! Why even bother telling them it was true, they'll just watch it for the pretty colors! DOOMED, I SAY! WE'RE ALL DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMED!
I agree, would you like a Scotch and a chair to watch it all go down?
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Old March 11 2014, 01:51 AM   #120
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Re: Cosmos - With Neil deGrasse Tyson

The font they used was pandering and manipulative.

1/10 empty-headed dumb bimbo waste of time tv show.
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