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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old June 17 2013, 11:00 PM   #1
AllStarEntprise
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Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

So I was contemplating a rematch against the Dominion with Federation technology not seen used during the Dominion War. Now I understand that our own technology has advanced since the 90's. Understanding that modern warfare employs the use of drone ships. Could the Federation have used drone starships against the Dominion?

The biggest tragedy of the Dominion War were the causalities the Federation allies suffered. Drone ships could've certainly cut down on casualties. We know ships are pretty much run by computers in Trek. We also know that holograms and holo-programs are tangible enough to run certain ships systems. Why weren't these methods employed during the Dominion War?

If drones or hologram run ships had been employed during the Dominion War do you think the conflict would've reached a stalemate scenario similar to TOS "A Taste Of Armageddon"?



If there are more methods or strategies you think should've been used in the Dominion War feel free to add and comment.
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Old June 17 2013, 11:09 PM   #2
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

^The question is not whether the Federation could have used drone ships against the Dominion but whether they would be able to keep up with the Dominion's numbers. Holograms require sophisticated programing, especially those expected to perform bridge operations on a starship. Serving as captain of a vessel isn't the same thing as maintaining a waste extraction system.

A stalemate isn't reached due to a lack of change in numbers. Stalemates occur when neither side is able to gain a tactical advantage over the other. Manpower may help tip the balance, but it matters less than the use of effective strategy and decision-making.

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Old June 17 2013, 11:31 PM   #3
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Why don't they just throw a bunch of self replicating mines at the Dominion fleet?
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Old June 17 2013, 11:33 PM   #4
Sran
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Why don't they just throw a bunch of self replicating mines at the Dominion fleet?
I'm not sure you meant this as a joke or if you're serious. It seems to me they tried that exact thing twice- first with the wormhole and later with the mines at AR-558.

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Old June 18 2013, 12:06 AM   #5
Richard Baker
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

I like the idea of using the holographic combat troops. Even without the advanced holoemitter from Voyager (now that it has returned), using holoemitters to produce specialized units to either defend a ship from boarding or free up/defend a installation would work.
Imagine if you took it a step further and instead of a holographic security guard with a phaser you created hordes of armoured spider-things with built-in weaponry, capable of walking on any surface, even ceilings.
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Old June 18 2013, 12:08 AM   #6
publiusr
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

I always figured the better part of the Dominion fleet was still in their own Gamma Quadrant.
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Old June 18 2013, 12:09 AM   #7
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

^The problem with relying on technology of that sort is that there's no backup plan if it fails. As deplorable as the loss of human life is, there are some things that only flesh and blood people can do when the chips are down.

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Old June 18 2013, 12:11 AM   #8
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

publiusr wrote: View Post
I always figured the better part of the Dominion fleet was still in their own Gamma Quadrant.
It is, but their ability to reproduce troops and ships at will kept the fighting going in the Alpha Quadrant going even after Sisko and the Prophets closed the wormhole to Dominion ships.

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Old June 18 2013, 12:23 AM   #9
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

^ Which is why hologram or drone ships could've made a difference for the Federation. With drones doing the bulk of the fighting the human resources could've been put to work building more ships or retrofitting existing ones.

You look at androids and holograms in Trek. They can think and reason. Uploading fight strategies or combat directives could have given a tactical advantage in combat. Computers can process data and react faster than people. After every dominion encounter the data gathered could've been uploaded to drone ships already existing catalog of data.

A flesh and blood command officer like Sisko, or Jellico could have been present to help add variety to battles. I mean we have computers today that can think and perform tasks assigned to them. More advanced computers are capable of reasoning.
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Old June 18 2013, 12:28 AM   #10
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

^You're missing an important point. The Federation went to war with the Dominion because their way of life was threatened. They weren't fighting simply for the sake of fighting. Part of what makes humanity great is its willingness to take ownership of a situation. How does one do that if he sends holograms to fight his battles for him? The Founders viewed the Jem'Hadar as disposable commodities. Were the Federation to adopt a similar attitude, they would be no better than the forces they were opposing.

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Old June 18 2013, 12:31 AM   #11
JarodRussell
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Why don't they just throw a bunch of self replicating mines at the Dominion fleet?
In order to work, the self replicating mine field had to be completely setup before its activation. It only worked as a whole.
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Old June 18 2013, 12:37 AM   #12
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

I don't think i'm missing any point. Winning is winning. Let's not forget both Starfleet command and the Federation Council voted AGAINST giving the Founders the cure for the morphogenic virus. They were content to ride it out and hope for a speedy end to this war. War is ugly and the Federation were losing it. While biological warfare is the lowest point you can stoop to. Drone warfare is not. It relieves the stress of combat for humanoid soldiers. Even today it's seen as a tactical advantage over send troops in to die.
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Old June 18 2013, 12:46 AM   #13
Sran
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
I don't think i'm missing any point. Winning is winning. Let's not forget both Starfleet command and the Federation Council voted AGAINST giving the Founders the cure for the morphogenic virus. They were content to ride it out and hope for a speedy end to this war. War is ugly and the Federation were losing it. While biological warfare is the lowest point you can stoop to. Drone warfare is not. It relieves the stress of combat for humanoid soldiers. Even today it's seen as a tactical advantage over send troops in to die.
Well, you're wrong, because you absolutely are missing my point. I'm not arguing that it's not a tactical advantage to conserve manpower, nor am I pointing out that drone warfare is comparable to biological warfare. My point is that it's wrong to treat holograms or androids as though they're disposable commodities simply because they can be replaced.

Recall Picard's argument in "The Measure of a Man" when he spoke of a hypothetical future in which every ship in the Federation would have a android like Data aboard. What did he compare the treatment of these androids to? Slavery. Are you seriously arguing that it's acceptable to use holograms or androids in such a matter because it's convenient? Yes, the Federation was in danger of losing the war with the Dominion, but what good would have come from winning the war if they'd sacrificed every Starfleet principle for the sake of victory?

Believe it or not, there are some things more important than wins and losses. Saving a civilization isn't merely a matter of saving the people who make it up but a matter of also protecting the essence of what that civilization represents. If the Federation were to start using holograms or androids to fight their wars, they'd be throwing their own rulebook out the window. Not exactly the best way to protect the values their government represents.

--Sran
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Old June 18 2013, 01:03 AM   #14
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Yah, as the above poster touched on, using holograms/androids smart enough to be worthwhile in a combat situation would being essentially drafting them into a life of servitude.
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Old June 18 2013, 01:08 AM   #15
AllStarEntprise
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Remember this is a hypothetical rematch scenario on how others would've run things differently.


Also android and hologram rights should only extend to sentient life forms. Recall the VOY episode "Author, Author", which delved into the stupid with his "Holographic rights" message. If you start assigning rights to every thing mechanical then you would have "replicator rights", "trasnporter rights", "sonic shower rights". This if it's run by computer it's sentient is absurd. Drone ships would only be obligated to fly, and fight. Just like probes in Trek are directed to gather and transmit data and no shouts slavery at the use of them because they are not sentient.

As we see in the Dominion War, Federation principles get thrown out the window for the sake of victory. Section 31 and Starfleet using the morphogenic virus, Sisko collaborating in an assassinating a Romulan to get the Romulan empire involved in the war. It's easy to remain principled when your way of life isn't threatened. In war things degrade to an us vs them scenario and winning is all that matters. How you win all matters as well. I don't think all the Federation families and Starfleet officers would've rejected proposals to have ships run by computers in place of themselves or their loved ones.

Like today. The only complaint people have against the use of drones is the potential for civilian casualties and killing American citizens who have joined the enemy forces.
In space against the bred Jem'Hadar and the Vorta clones. I don't people would bat an eyelash over them being killed by computers if it meant security at home and reduced loss of life.
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