RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 137,795
Posts: 5,325,701
Members: 24,548
Currently online: 480
Newest member: wrestlefreak36

TrekToday headlines

Seven of Nine Bobble Head
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

Pegg The Prankster
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

More Trek Stars Join Unbelievable!!!!!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

Star Trek #35 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

New ThinkGeek Trek Apparel
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Star Trek Movie Prop Auction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Drexler: NX Engineering Room Construction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

New Trek Home Fashions
By: T'Bonz on Jul 4

Star Trek Pop-Ups Book Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 3

Cho: More On Selfie
By: T'Bonz on Jul 3


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 22 2013, 07:23 PM   #16
matthunter
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Was Dax Sisko's XO circa 2374 ?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
How so? LaForge's rank progressed smoothly, whereas Tuvok almost certainly had to have been demoted at some point.
If you're referring to Tuvok still only being a Lieutenant despite being in Starfleet back in the days of Kirk and Sulu, the backstory for the character (fleshed out in the novel Pathways) had him resign his Starfleet commission for several decades to raise his family and explore his Vulcan heritage, having found interaction with humans difficult. He subsequently realised there was much to learn in Starfleet and had his commission restored, but at the same rank as when he left.
__________________
If you're frustrated with a smug, arrogant right-wing nutjob poster who never backs up their arguments and twists out of answering straight questions, try the Ignore feature! Now with raspberry filling.
matthunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 22 2013, 08:34 PM   #17
Lighthammer
Fleet Captain
 
Lighthammer's Avatar
 
Re: Was Dax Sisko's XO circa 2374 ?

Nope!

What we/I am are referring to is when we first saw Tuvok's rank, he was a Lt. Cmdr. in Care Taker, I don't recall when, but at some point a whole pip was taken off his collar and he was "demoted" to Lt. Jg. and only got "repromoted" down the road.

My take on the whole thing was it was a kneejerk reaction. At some point after shooting they realzied they were making Chakotay a Lt Cmdr instead of a Cmdr so they thought making Tuvok a Lt Cmdr was awkward and dropped his rank; either that or they made the decision in time but makeup, nor the directors got the memo.

I'm not sure this is something that can be explained away through some sort of inventive story explanation that everyone would generally buy.

As for LaForge's rank progression, I kind of do need to bring this up while I am thinking about; You don't go from Lt Jg, to Lt to Lt Cmdr in 1 year stepping stones. You just don't. I could buy LaForge being promoted from Lt Jg to Lt to take over Engineering in season 2 and then promoting him again in like season 6 or 7.

As long as LaForge was a Lt Jg, it gives the impression he was either king of slackers for a long time (which nothing in his history suggests that in the very least) or he took a sabbatical for some period of time. After a fashion, what really messed us up was finding out Riker and LaForge graduated the same year form Starfleet Academy --- that was the point when things just got unwieldy weird. As soon as we learned that, by all rights, LaForges should have been Chief Engineer in Season 1 STARTING with a rank of Lt Cmdr.

Grumble, grumble --- inconsistencies on screen make me sad when they are this overt.
__________________
Truth is a 3 edged sword
Lighthammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 22 2013, 08:34 PM   #18
Pavonis
Commodore
 
Re: Was Dax Sisko's XO circa 2374 ?

Nope, not what I meant. Tuvok wore the pips of a lieutenant commander in season one, then only lieutenant pips, then lieutenant commander pips again.
Pavonis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 22 2013, 08:48 PM   #19
Lighthammer
Fleet Captain
 
Lighthammer's Avatar
 
Re: Was Dax Sisko's XO circa 2374 ?

I was actually going to go look for the episodes to validate where that happened, but yea, you're right actually, he went down to Lt, not Lt Jg. I forgot Paris was a full Lt and Tuvok was very obviously his superior.
__________________
Truth is a 3 edged sword
Lighthammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 22 2013, 10:36 PM   #20
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Was Dax Sisko's XO circa 2374 ?

I'm not sure this is something that can be explained away through some sort of inventive story explanation that everyone would generally buy.
It's simple enough to argue that Janeway demoted Tuvok as the result of his mutinous activities in "Prime Factors". His "extra" pip disappears after that, and although the disappearance is an odd and protracted affair where the pip flashes on and off between scenes of "Cathexis", we could turn a blind eye to that.

It's not our eyes or our plot-analyzing intelligence that present the problem here. It's our ears. On half a dozen occasions throughout the first season, Tuvok is verbally identified as "Lieutenant", not "Lieutenant Commander". Some of these we might chalk off as Janeway considering Tuvok her trusted lieutenant, regardless of rank. But several are formal introductions, often by Tuvok himself - say, in "Ex Post Facto". The short form "Commander" would be excusable there, but the expression "Lieutenant" would not.

Assuming that Tuvok got demoted presents us with several advantages. Many other characters got demoted around that time, too: B'Elanna Torres had been wearing varying "custom" versions of the Maquis pin, ranging from Ensign to full Lieutenant, but now stabilized on Lt (j.g.), and Tom Paris dropped from full Lieutenant to junior rank. Torres was part of the "Prime Factors" mutiny, and it's easy to believe Paris would find ways to make Janeway sufficiently annoyed at him.

If we assume Janeway demoted Tuvok, then we can argue that Janeway never promoted anybody. She just restored Tuvok's rank later on, much like he restored Paris' after the boy had suffered through his "30 Days" demotion penalty; perhaps she believed that she had no authority to promote anybody without first clearing it with Starfleet. This explains poor Harry Kim, the Eternal Ensign!

Hey, if skippers who are cut off from home base don't get their promotions confirmed, we have a long queue of cases that this could explain. This is why Spock is still a "Lieutenant Commander" in Starfleet's books despite wearing full Commander braid; this is why LaForge didn't get promoted on schedule, as he was stranded on a long and dull deep space assignment aboard the Victory; etc.

But, as said, this all requires us not to believe our ears. Sure, Trek is a visual type of entertainment first and foremost, but still...

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 23 2013, 12:12 AM   #21
Tomalak
Vice Admiral
 
Tomalak's Avatar
 
Location: Liverpool
View Tomalak's Twitter Profile
Re: Was Dax Sisko's XO circa 2374 ?

You got through a whole post on rank inconsistencies without mentioning Lieutenant O'Brien's demotion!
__________________
She bought her first new car and you hit her with a drunk driver. What, is that supposed to be funny?
Tomalak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 23 2013, 12:43 AM   #22
Bad Thoughts
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Disguised as Reb Bad Thoughts
Re: Was Dax Sisko's XO circa 2374 ?

Tomalak wrote: View Post
You got through a whole post on rank inconsistencies without mentioning Lieutenant O'Brien's demotion!
I believe chief petty officer get higher pay, which in Star Trek, means more Starfleet Fun Dollars.
Bad Thoughts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 23 2013, 12:51 AM   #23
Lighthammer
Fleet Captain
 
Lighthammer's Avatar
 
Re: Was Dax Sisko's XO circa 2374 ?

Tomalak wrote: View Post
You got through a whole post on rank inconsistencies without mentioning Lieutenant O'Brien's demotion!
Well in some level of fairness, O'Brian was always intended to be a crewman, Roddenberry just hadn't formalized what a non-com insignia was.

Though, its really wonky to consider he went from weapons officer on a New Orleans class (which is a lot smaller then a Galaxy, but was in many ways the prototype for the Galaxy) to a Transporter Chief.

This is another character who's story made a lot more sense until a key episode where they dropped new information. We almost need a retcon to explain that away too.

Heck, its a little hard to believe a non-com would be in charge of engineering for an entire station --- what is? 8x the physical size of the Enterprise? (I need to look up mass measurements to see if my guess is in the right ball part, but we know the Galaxy has 42 decks and DS9 has at least 68 decks in some places).
__________________
Truth is a 3 edged sword
Lighthammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 23 2013, 01:08 AM   #24
Bad Thoughts
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Disguised as Reb Bad Thoughts
Re: Was Dax Sisko's XO circa 2374 ?

Lighthammer wrote: View Post
Tomalak wrote: View Post
You got through a whole post on rank inconsistencies without mentioning Lieutenant O'Brien's demotion!
Well in some level of fairness, O'Brian was always intended to be a crewman, Roddenberry just hadn't formalized what a non-com insignia was.

Though, its really wonky to consider he went from weapons officer on a New Orleans class (which is a lot smaller then a Galaxy, but was in many ways the prototype for the Galaxy) to a Transporter Chief.

This is another character who's story made a lot more sense until a key episode where they dropped new information. We almost need a retcon to explain that away too.

Heck, its a little hard to believe a non-com would be in charge of engineering for an entire station --- what is? 8x the physical size of the Enterprise? (I need to look up mass measurements to see if my guess is in the right ball part, but we know the Galaxy has 42 decks and DS9 has at least 68 decks in some places).
Making sure the lights stay on a Quark's doesn't require an officer.
Bad Thoughts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 23 2013, 02:17 AM   #25
FKnight
Commander
 
FKnight's Avatar
 
Re: Was Dax Sisko's XO circa 2374 ?

Lighthammer wrote: View Post
Well in some level of fairness, O'Brian was always intended to be a crewman, Roddenberry just hadn't formalized what a non-com insignia was.

Though, its really wonky to consider he went from weapons officer on a New Orleans class (which is a lot smaller then a Galaxy, but was in many ways the prototype for the Galaxy) to a Transporter Chief.

This is another character who's story made a lot more sense until a key episode where they dropped new information. We almost need a retcon to explain that away too.

Heck, its a little hard to believe a non-com would be in charge of engineering for an entire station --- what is? 8x the physical size of the Enterprise? (I need to look up mass measurements to see if my guess is in the right ball part, but we know the Galaxy has 42 decks and DS9 has at least 68 decks in some places).
He's also chief engineer of the Defiant.

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
I believe chief petty officer get higher pay, which in Star Trek, means more Starfleet Fun Dollars.
Maybe the reason O'Brian stays enlisted is because non-officers actually get paid! The officers, on the other hand, simply get to "improve and enrich themselves."
__________________
"You have been examined. Your ship must be destroyed. We make assumption you have a deity, or deities, or some such beliefs which comfort you. We therefore grant you ten Earth time periods known as minutes to make preparations."
FKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 23 2013, 03:16 AM   #26
Bad Thoughts
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Disguised as Reb Bad Thoughts
Re: Was Dax Sisko's XO circa 2374 ?

Maybe the reason O'Brian stays enlisted is because non-officers actually get paid! The officers, on the other hand, simply get to "improve and enrich themselves."
In other words, O'Brien gets a hot wife and two kids, while Picard gets to read Shakespeare and hope that his brief marriage to Crusher wasn't limited to an alternative timeline.
Bad Thoughts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 23 2013, 06:21 AM   #27
Lighthammer
Fleet Captain
 
Lighthammer's Avatar
 
Re: Was Dax Sisko's XO circa 2374 ?

Lets put this in perspective, its a lot easier to justify a high ranking non-com being a chief engineer of an escort vessel, especially at the rank of Master Chief Petty Officer.

Its a lot harder to buy he went from Tactical Officer on a a light cruiser to a transporter chief on a heavy cruiser to the lead officer from the Starfleet Core of Engineers on a massive space station.

In a real scenario, it's not unreasonable to believe that O'Brien was either the lead operations officer of DS9 as a non-com (aka NOT the guy in charge of repairing the station but perhaps the guy managing the crew rotations, which, lets not kid ourselves, thats a full time job in of itself) or the top guy on a crew. Either would have made sense for him to THEN be the chief engineer of an Escort Class that barely has 50 crew members (and probably more accurately closer to 40, though 25 always seemed more reasonable to me) on most missions.

At the end of the day, DS9 hurts my head because its hard to ignore how many plot discrepancies there are throughout the series =(.
__________________
Truth is a 3 edged sword
Lighthammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 23 2013, 11:14 AM   #28
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Was Dax Sisko's XO circa 2374 ?

We should remember that DS9 is mostly "hollow" - it had either a crew or a total number of residents as low as 300 back in "Captive Pursuit", and the events of "The Siege" might in fact support the latter interpretation. It's not exactly a prestige assignment.

The Rutledge might have been an equally humble vessel, as backstage sources equate her with ships dubbed "frigate" in "Conspiracy" - and any navy having both frigates and cruisers today or yesterday has the former be fairly small types.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 23 2013, 11:20 AM   #29
Tomalak
Vice Admiral
 
Tomalak's Avatar
 
Location: Liverpool
View Tomalak's Twitter Profile
Re: Was Dax Sisko's XO circa 2374 ?

And later on, he's basically performing administrative tasks, coordinating repairs to ships rather than actually doing the repairs himself.
__________________
She bought her first new car and you hit her with a drunk driver. What, is that supposed to be funny?
Tomalak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 23 2013, 08:30 PM   #30
TheRoyalFamily
Commodore
 
TheRoyalFamily's Avatar
 
Re: Was Dax Sisko's XO circa 2374 ?

Also also, DS9 only has fusion reactors, not m/am. Maybe those are not sufficiently advanced to require engineering officer training at some fancy school.

Of course Defiant has a warp core, but I figure by then O'Brian had shown enough aptitude that Sisko kept him for that job.
__________________
You perceive wrongly. I feel unimaginable happiness wasting time talking with women. I'm that type of human.
TheRoyalFamily is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:58 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.