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Old August 20 2014, 07:29 PM   #3436
Servo
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
Servo wrote: View Post
Because calling MoS torture porn is idiotic. It's a shock buzz term that has no relation to MoS at all. No-one got tortured, Eli Roth wasn't involved, it wasn't Saw or Hostel. So not torture porn.

And if you want to talk condescending, have a word with your buddy AvBaur, who felt the need to explain that things happen in films because the writer wrote them that way. Duh.
Disaster Porn
Torture Porn.

Both terms are close enough. Lots of people brutally die for our amusement. Why are you being so pedantic about the term?
Because I can. And because the term still does not fit, regardless of how "close enough" you think it is.

By your definition, any film where "people brutally die for our amusement", whether seen or unseen, is torture porn. And you wonder why people think your opinion of this film is OTT.
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Old August 20 2014, 07:45 PM   #3437
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Servo wrote: View Post
Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
Yes. Honestly. Yeah. Think about Ghostbusters... how many people might have been killed with the Giant Stay Puff man. But, it's a comedy, it's not really--oddly for a supernatural film--dealing with real life and death.
MoS is a superhero film based off a comic book. It's not really dealing with real life and death. Any more than any comic book, or comic based film is. Regardless of how gritty, or cartoonish, they may be portrayed.
So what that it's based off a comic book? What does the source material have to do with how they chose to do the movie?

Do you believe, tonally, that the Avengers and MOS are the same? Do you believe that Moonraker and Casino Royale are the same?
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Old August 20 2014, 08:34 PM   #3438
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
Servo wrote: View Post
Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
Yes. Honestly. Yeah. Think about Ghostbusters... how many people might have been killed with the Giant Stay Puff man. But, it's a comedy, it's not really--oddly for a supernatural film--dealing with real life and death.
MoS is a superhero film based off a comic book. It's not really dealing with real life and death. Any more than any comic book, or comic based film is. Regardless of how gritty, or cartoonish, they may be portrayed.
So what that it's based off a comic book? What does the source material have to do with how they chose to do the movie?

Do you believe, tonally, that the Avengers and MOS are the same? Do you believe that Moonraker and Casino Royale are the same?
My point was that it's all fiction, and none of it deals with "real life or death".

Plenty of action/sci-fi/comic book films have glossed over mass destruction and the deaths of thousands, MoS is by no means the first, and no doubt it won't be the last. However, how do you know those things won't be dealt with in the next film?

Marvel have already done the same thing with their films; the consequences of things that happened in Iron Man were felt in IM2. The effects of the events in The Avengers were all over IM3, and The Winter Soldier. I have a feeling that the events at the end of MoS are going to play a big part in character motivations in DoJ. I especially think Batman's involvement, and the inevitable confrontation between the two, will be motivated by his belief that Superman is a threat to Earth, due to the very destruction his battle with the Kryptonians created.

I suppose my main point in all this is that I don't think there's much point in judging Superman from one film alone. If they're trying to create a cinematic universe in the same way that Marvel have, then why not wait and see how things unfold in the next film?
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Old August 20 2014, 08:46 PM   #3439
Professor Zoom
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Servo wrote: View Post
Plenty of action/sci-fi/comic book films have glossed over mass destruction and the deaths of thousands, MoS is by no means the first, and no doubt it won't be the last. However, how do you know those things won't be dealt with in the next film?
Because I don't judge the success or failure of a movie based on a sequel that may or not be made. I judge it for the thing itself.

Should I still be waiting for the sequel to judge Green Lantern?



I suppose my main point in all this is that I don't think there's much point in judging Superman from one film alone. If they're trying to create a cinematic universe in the same way that Marvel have, then why not wait and see how things unfold in the next film?
Because, again, I judge whether or not I like a movie based on the movie itself. It's an origin story, not an origin trilogy. And I don't think they did a very good job at telling a complete story.

Iron Man told a complete story... we didn't have to wait until Iron Man 2 to decide whether or not we liked Iron Man. And how would that work, would we have had to wait until Iron Man 3 to judge Iron Man?

Personally, unless it is telling a story in parts (like Lord of the Rings, or Kill Bill) a movie should stand on it's own and not rely on a sequel to be complete.

If you mean, judging the character of Superman, I'm not judging the character of Superman, I'm judging the filmmakers for being able to tell a Superman story effectively and clearly.

I've said it before, I think Synder is a tremendously visual director... but when it comes to character and narrative, I think he's like Brett Ratner. Basically capable.

I would rather have less flash, less spectacle and more heart and soul.
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Old August 20 2014, 08:56 PM   #3440
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
It's not about tone. It's about content and if we compare content; civilians dying or suffering en masse and massive amounts of property damage.
I'm not responding to the rest because this is important.

Tone is a huge part of a movie. Of ANY movie. The Avengers is more of a cartoon than MOS. The Avenger is more light hearted, less real, more quippy. I'm not expecting it to be grounded in emotion, I don't need it to be.

MOS, it's tone is more grounded, more real. The characters are supposed to be more fully fleshed out.

Tone sets out expectations to how characters respond.

Hell, look at the tonal difference between Batman 1966 and The Dark Knight. Should we have the same expectations for both films?

You strip tone from the conversation and you are taking a major component away from any film.
So it's the tone of the movie not the content that irks you? Suprising, comic writer Grant Morrisson (JLA, All Star Superman, New 52 Action Comics Superman) implied something similar. Where the level of destruction wasn't what bothered him, more than the film didn't have that triumphant beat he wanted. I posted a link to his end to MOS, where Zod and Supes battle from Earth, to the Moon, to Mars and finally to Pluto. The level of destruction would be akin if not greater to what we saw in MOS, it just wouldn't take place on Earth. The climax of the film would have Supes and Zod running out of power on Pluto and Zod dying from lack of air, while Supes could make it back to Earth.

This ending changes the tone of the movie. You would have to go back and alter previous scenes in order to not have the film end so hackneyed. Most people liked large parts of the film but were not fans of the tone. i can understand this. However that's where I think Snyder wanted his Superman to be. MOS is an action-drama, like TDK trilogy. Avengers, IM 1-3, Capt America 1-2 and Thor 1-2 are action-thrillers. They play it differently despite sharing a genre. The Marvel Studios films have a whimsical and fun charm to them. It's why people like them so much. MOS and TDK are dramas, which don't allow for the playful banter you see in the Marvel movies. Can you imagine Batman shooting the shit with Gordon while the Joker is killing cops and blowing up hospitals? Or Superman cracking wise with Jimmy and Lois, while Zod and his followers are planning worldwide genocide?

The tone and content of the films would have a sheering effect that would rip the films apart.

Best example of this would be Thor TDW. You have a villain, Malekith who has a weapon that nearly fragged the entire universe, but because of the tone of the movie; Malekith and his threat are nerfed (nerf darts). Malekith was bad enough to wage war into the heart of Asgard and kill it's queen and yet he was beaten by Thor, 2 human scientists and 2 brainless interns. It's an issue with most of the Marvel villains really. There menace/level of threat is toned down in order to keep the film light. Hugo Weaving's Nazi Red Skull was almost comical in his movie.


So you're right. Tone and content dictate what kind of movie you have. I just don't see the point of disliking MOS because of it's tone. I mean it's not as dark as say Watchmen, V for Vendetta or TDK. The attack on Metropolis was dispassionate IMO. Zod and his army weren't going around personally frying people. The action was on Superman and the military getting the job done. The faceless mass of people on the ground were just that, faceless. Although I read a rumor that Cyborg will be one of the people who was effected by the attack on Metropolis. The robotic parts grafted on to his body after being crushed in the debris.
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Old August 20 2014, 09:01 PM   #3441
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

I agree with Zoom.

I didn't like Man of Steel.

The only thing it did right was put Superman in a drag out fight, which had not happened really since Superman II back in 1980. (I don't think Nuclear Man should count.)

However, the execution of the story, the dialogue, I thought it was all garbage. The whole thing didn't feel like Superman. It felt like a hodgepodge of Attack of the Clones, Avatar, other sci-fi films.

I wasn't crazy about Henry Cavill, to be honest. He didn't pull a Daniel Craig and make much of an impression. I thought Michael Shannon was great.

I've enjoyed many of Zack Snyder's movies, particularly 300 and Dawn of the Dead.

He's great at visuals, but I don't think anyone is concerned with visuals. I think people are more concerned with his ability to make a cohesive story with character growth. His two films prior to Man of Steel don't seem to indicate that storytelling is his forte: Watchmen was mediocre at best, and Sucker Punch was a complete mess.

I'm probably not going to watch Batman vs. Superman unless word of mouth is good. I think DC/WB is so desperate to catch up to Marvel that the quality won't match Marvel's.
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Old August 20 2014, 09:04 PM   #3442
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post

Insert Shawarma scene in the ruined NYC restaurant. Destruction without consequences, right here folks.

That's right, because the tone of the Avengers was SO much like the tone of MOS.
And, tone aside, I don't see what's so horrible about getting a bite to eat after a battle.

And it's a facetious point anyway, as the destruction and loss of life in Avengers was acknowledged in the news-clip montage where we saw candle-light vigils for the dead, a "rememberance wall" with pictures of the fallen and missing, descriptive words like "devastation" used by reporters, a politician seeking to blame the Avengers, ect. It may have been a quick glossing over, but at least it's acknowlegement, and the movie had to end sometime. A 40 minute epilogue depicting SHIELD clean-up teams and Damage Control digging out bodies while the Avengers testified before Congress would have been pointless.

Some people like to discount that sequence because it has a little humor in it, which I find bewildering. If anything, MOS needed more humor. The few attempts at it fell very flat, IMHO.
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Old August 20 2014, 09:10 PM   #3443
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
So it's the tone of the movie not the content that irks you? .
Honestly, I feel like you aren't reading my posts.

BECAUSE of the TONE of the movie, I expect the CONTENT to be treated in a different way than a movie with a DIFFERENT tone. I expect the CHARACTERS to respond in a certain kind of way, i.e., in a more realistic movie, in a more realistic way. As we move away from realism, say into comedy, in a less realistic way.

Do you think Moonraker and Casino Royale are the same movie? That the characters are going to react the same kind of depth in both of them? The tone for those movies are vastly different. Yet, the content is somewhat similar. One Bond is quippy, the other Bond is weepy.

Another example: Batman: TAS and Batman: The Brave and the Bold. Both have a difference in tone. A pretty significant difference in tone. Both are about Batman fighting crime. Roughly the same content. But do you expect that Batman in TAS to have the same emotional reactions to events as the Batman in Brave and the Bold?
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Old August 20 2014, 09:13 PM   #3444
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Servo wrote: View Post
Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
Tone is a huge part of a movie. Of ANY movie. The Avengers is more of a cartoon than MOS. The Avenger is more light hearted, less real, more quippy. I'm not expecting it to be grounded in emotion, I don't need it to be.
So, destroying half of New York, which undoubtedly killed thousands of people, is perfectly fine as long as you're brightly coloured and cracking wise the whole time?

I suggest you watch MoS again.
I suggest you watch Avengers again. The Avengers kept the battle (or at least attempted to) contained to three square blocks around Stark Tower ("Stark, anything gets more than three blocks out, you turn it back or you turn it to ash"), which is hardly "half of New York". And as I said in my previous post, there was acknowlegement of the deaths and destruction in NYC, they just didn't dwell on it.
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Old August 20 2014, 09:21 PM   #3445
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
So it's the tone of the movie not the content that irks you? .
Honestly, I feel like you aren't reading my posts.

BECAUSE of the TONE of the movie, I expect the CONTENT to be treated in a different way than a movie with a DIFFERENT tone. I expect the CHARACTERS to respond in a certain kind of way, i.e., in a more realistic movie, in a more realistic way. As we move away from realism, say into comedy, in a less realistic way.

Do you think Moonraker and Casino Royale are the same movie? That the characters are going to react the same kind of depth in both of them? The tone for those movies are vastly different. Yet, the content is somewhat similar. One Bond is quippy, the other Bond is weepy.

Another example: Batman: TAS and Batman: The Brave and the Bold. Both have a difference in tone. A pretty significant difference in tone. Both are about Batman fighting crime. Roughly the same content. But do you expect that Batman in TAS to have the same emotional reactions to events as the Batman in Brave and the Bold?
It's why I asked the question. You keep bringing tone up, so I figured I'd ask if that is what bothered you.

I believe I already addressed the tone disparities between MOS and other comicbook movies. They're aims/goals are different things. Why can't they just be different?




Also another leaked photo.
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Old August 20 2014, 09:24 PM   #3446
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

^Very cool pic.
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Old August 20 2014, 09:33 PM   #3447
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
I believe I already addressed the tone disparities between MOS and other comicbook movies. They're aims/goals are different things. Why can't they just be different?
That's exactly my point. Their aims/goals are different. That's why they can be JUDGED differently. So, I don't understand why you say, "well, the Avengers didn't have x, y, and z, why do you want MOS to have it?"

Because they are different movies.
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Old August 20 2014, 10:00 PM   #3448
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

It feels like people keep trying to judge this as just another typical superhero movie ("where's the fun and humor? why do the battles go on so long?"), and don't fully appreciate that once Zod enters the picture it essentially shifts into becoming a propulsive, intense Black Hawk Down-style war movie, where Superman is struggling just to stay one step ahead of the enemy and doesn't really have time for a whole lot else.

The typical superhero movie rules do not really apply here, because that's not what this was trying to be.

I can definitely understand how that may not be the ideal kind of Superman movie for many people, but that doesn't automatically mean the movie they made doesn't work.
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Old August 20 2014, 10:06 PM   #3449
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

davejames wrote: View Post
It feels like people keep trying to judge this as just another typical superhero movie ("where's the fun and humor? why do the battles go on so long?"), and don't fully appreciate that once Zod enters the picture it essentially shifts into becoming a propulsive, intense Black Hawk Down-style war movie, where Superman is struggling just to stay one step ahead of the enemy and doesn't really have time for a whole lot else.

The typical superhero movie rules do not really apply here, because that's not what this was trying to be.

I can definitely understand how that may not be the ideal kind of Superman movie for many people, but that doesn't automatically mean the movie they made doesn't work.
But that type of movie doesn't work for me. So therefore I feel the movie ultimately doesn't work. More power to you if it does for you, but don't tell me that the movie works regardless of how I personally feel about it.
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Old August 20 2014, 10:07 PM   #3450
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

davejames wrote: View Post
It feels like people keep trying to judge this as just another typical superhero movie ("where's the fun and humor? why do the battles go on so long?"), and don't fully appreciate that once Zod enters the picture it essentially shifts into becoming a propulsive, intense Black Hawk Down-style war movie, where Superman is struggling just to stay one step ahead of the enemy and doesn't really have time for a whole lot else.
Nah, the plot was far too stupid to allow for any tension.
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