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Old July 22 2013, 11:04 PM   #316
Set Harth
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

It helps when you have Oliver on hand to shoot Superman with a Kryptonite-tipped arrow.
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Old July 22 2013, 11:04 PM   #317
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
davejames wrote: View Post
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Batman is such a broad character that a Batman film would have been useful to set up just what kind of character this was going to be.
I don't really see that being necessary myself. They can establish what kind of Batman this is (and what kinds of villains he fights) easily with an introductory action scene in Gotham.

And as far as his temperment, it's almost certain to be similar to the Bale Batman, since Warners won't want to veer too far from what audiences loved in the immensely popular Nolan movies.
Exactly. In this day and age, I don't think moviegoers want or expect Batman to be a "light-hearted crime-fighter" with a Boy Wonder sidekick. Or that the general audience will be obsessing over what particular bits of comic book trivia apply to this particular version of Batman.

Batman will be a dark avenger of the night, motivated by the violent death of his parents so many years ago. As long as you stick to the broad strokes: Batcave, Batmobile, Bat-Signal, stately Wayne Manor, the average movie-goer is going not to be any more confused than when Daniel Craig took over as James Bond after the Pierce Brosnan era.
I hope the new Batman has a goofy voice like Bale. I think they should let whoever they get to play Bruce Wayne voice him in unmasked scenes, but get Gilbert Gottfried to dub the Batman voice. It would still be more threatening than Christian "I need a lozenge" Bale. Atleast when you had a bad James Bond (like Dalton, atleast from the general opinios I've seen) he was gone in a movie or two. Bale isn't even playing Batman, and his Batman will probably be in movies for decades now.

Christopher wrote: View Post
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In this day and age, I don't think moviegoers want or expect Batman to be a "light-hearted crime-fighter" with a Boy Wonder sidekick.

Actually, I've had the passing thought now and then that in the wake of the Nolan trilogy, it might be cool to see a version of Batman that recaptured the zany fun of the Adam West series and film. After all, it worked for Batman: The Brave and the Bold on TV. But then I remember that Batman and Robin was basically an attempt to do a modern big-screen version of Adam West-style camp, and that was painfully garish, self-conscious, and tonally inconsistent. It's something that would be very difficult to do right, especially given how much more crass and sophomoric the modern style of feature-film comedy has become, and how much modern tentpole features are dominated by excess. Good comedy, or good camp, calls for a certain restraint, knowing how far is far enough.


But I don't want something that's just Nolanverse Batman with the face and backstory changed. The fun of a reboot is getting to see a different version of the character and the world, to see a new and distinct variation on the theme. I've had my fill of Frank Miller-inspired screen Batman; let's see some Denny O'Neill or Steve Englehart-inspired Batman, say.

I'd like that too, but they won't do it. It will just be the typical Nolan Batman played by a different actor. Heck, if Superman is basically that, why would they change up Batman? DC probably thinks that having two guys constantly brooding in a color muted world will get them double the money. Still, they could give Batman a bit more personality. It would be awesome if he spends the movie making cracks about Superman



It will be a change to see Batman having the obvious moral high ground on Superman (not counting stupid Frank Miller comics and stuff like that). I can hear it now:

Batman: Sure, I break bones sometimes, put people in the hospital and generally terrify criminals, but atleast I'm not you, Clark.

That would almost make it worth putting up with Nolan's Batman again for another 2+ hours. Still, atleast this announcement came along with an apparent Flash movie being planned. Hopefully Goyer will be too overworked by the Superman/Batman stuff to turn Flash into another dark, boring hero. It would be awesome if people who still believed in movies having fun and happiness in them got to work on a DC superhero movie again.
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Old July 22 2013, 11:04 PM   #318
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

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Snyder made it clear at Comic-Con that the tone he wants to strike in the next film will be similar to Miller's The Dark Knight Returns. He even had an excerpt from TDKR read on stage by actor Harry Lennix.
Yes, I know. That's why I made a point of saying I'm not eager to see that. I think it's taking completely the wrong lesson from TDKR to treat it as an exemplar for portraying Batman. TDKR was meant to be a deconstructive, alternative, somewhat satirical take on Batman and the DCU, exploring how the characters would change in an extreme dystopian future. It's a terrible idea to use it as a stylistic or conceptual model for Superman & Batman's first meeting. Snyder and Goyer got a ton wrong in MoS, and now it feels like they're still fundamentally missing the point.
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Old July 22 2013, 11:12 PM   #319
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

But considering the destruction caused in MoS, wouldn't they want someone (who is not a villain) willing to take on Superman should he run amok again? Batman has protocols to take down everybody. That's really the only Superman-Batman dynamic the modern comic reader knows.
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Old July 23 2013, 12:18 AM   #320
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

the G-man wrote: View Post
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Along with a new actor to play Bruce Wayne, I expect a brand new set of vehicle and gadget designs for Batman. I would, however, welcome a Batmobile that is similar to the 1989-1992 version. As for Batman's suit, the one used by Bale was a good design and I see no need to change the suit again.
Same here. And despite the popularity of the Nolan movies, I actually don't think audiences will have that much of a problem adjusting to a new Batman actor.

The character is cool enough and strong enough to stand on his own, pretty much.
To me, Batman is the American Bond. You can recast him as often as necessary and, as long as the casting is good, audiences accept that there is a new actor.
Yep, we had 3 actors over 4 movies all theoretically in the same continuity. Audiences never got confused and asked for an origin story every time a new actor stepped in. The only people that feel the need a reboot with an origin story every time there is a change are the people on this board.
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Old July 23 2013, 12:31 AM   #321
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Dark Gilligan wrote: View Post
But considering the destruction caused in MoS, wouldn't they want someone (who is not a villain) willing to take on Superman should he run amok again? Batman has protocols to take down everybody. That's really the only Superman-Batman dynamic the modern comic reader knows.
I wonder though if this quote is more in reference to how they meet. I can imagine a story where Waynetec and Lexcorps are working together to find a way to take down Superman or beings like him in the case of a future invasion. It would be logical that Batman might even consider Superman a conspirator in the alien attack and set out to take him down at the beginning of the movie, only to join forces with him as the story progresses.

This is still in very early stages so I wouldn't read to much in to the DKR reference just yet.

On another note, Super-hero movies are perfect to set up like a James Bond series. There is not much difference between a different actor in a movie and a new creative team on a comic when you think about it.
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Old July 23 2013, 12:32 AM   #322
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Christopher wrote: View Post
But I don't want something that's just Nolanverse Batman with the face and backstory changed. The fun of a reboot is getting to see a different version of the character and the world, to see a new and distinct variation on the theme. I've had my fill of Frank Miller-inspired screen Batman; let's see some Denny O'Neill or Steve Englehart-inspired Batman, say.
Yeah I'd love to see a completely different take as well (ideally something a lot more operatic and comic booky), but I'd also be fine with another Nolan-style Batman as well--especially considering we hardly ever saw much of Batman in those movies anyway!

He was more of a supporting player in a vast and epic crime drama, so it'd be nice to finally see him get some real screen time in a movie and have a much bigger role.
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Old July 23 2013, 12:38 AM   #323
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

^ Hopefully not at the expense of Clark/Superman, Lois, Perry, etc.
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Old July 23 2013, 12:42 AM   #324
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Dark Gilligan wrote: View Post
But considering the destruction caused in MoS, wouldn't they want someone (who is not a villain) willing to take on Superman should he run amok again? Batman has protocols to take down everybody. That's really the only Superman-Batman dynamic the modern comic reader knows.
But their confrontation from TDKR is hardly the only story about them being at odds. A far better model, I think, would be John Byrne's Superman: The Man of Steel #3, depicting the first meeting of post-Crisis Superman and Batman. Instead of a physical throwdown, it's more a battle of wits as Batman uses his skill and hyper-preparedness to evade getting taken in by Superman, and gradually convinces Superman that his vigilante methods are necessary in Gotham. And it's a story that works as the first meeting between two characters who start out at odds but gradually come to realize they're on the same side despite their conflicting methods.

Although what I'd like to see is rather the reverse of that. The MoS Clark/Kal-El did a pretty crappy job of being Superman, failing to prevent the city's destruction and not making a lot of effort to safeguard civilians. I'd love to see a story where Batman starts out seeing Superman as the threat, as having great power and insufficient responsibility to be trusted with it, and where Batman shows Superman how important it is to protect the little guy, how it's pointless to save the world if you don't try to save the individuals who inhabit it. Then they'd start out at odds, but Batman would be taking Superman on the next step of his journey, guiding him closer toward true heroism.


AviTrek wrote: View Post
Yep, we had 3 actors over 4 movies all theoretically in the same continuity. Audiences never got confused and asked for an origin story every time a new actor stepped in.
Indeed, none of the Burton-Schumacher movies was an origin story for Batman, only for his enemies. The series opened with Batman already active, and his backstory was revealed over the course of the film. Of the eight live-action Batman feature films to date (including the '66 version, the Burton & Schumacher films, and the Nolan trilogy), only one is an origin story. Even Mask of the Phantasm only showed the origin in flashbacks.
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Old July 23 2013, 12:43 AM   #325
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Christopher wrote: View Post
series went on hiatus because the studios decided "Okay, we need to impose an arbitrary 'rest' on the franchise for a decade or so and then bring it back." They stopped making movies only because the movies stopped making money, because audiences lost interest. They came back because a later generation was nostalgic for the franchise or because a new production company acquired the rights and wanted to do something with them or whatever.

This idea that there's some sort of rule about franchises needing to "rest" for a while before returning is most likely an invention of fans, particularly fans who feel that a given franchise has gotten stale. Or maybe it's an excuse made by producers whose last couple of films haven't been profitable or well-received -- rather than just admit that they made disappointing movies, they say, "Well, audiences are burned out and we need to give it a rest for a while until their interest returns." But we have hard evidence that that's bogus. After Star Trek: Nemesis and Enterprise got disappointing reactions, fans and producers alike were saying that ST probably needed to lie fallow for a decade or so -- but then the Paramount/CBS corporate split happened, Paramount needed to get a Trek movie into production within 18 months to retain the movie rights, and so they rebooted the franchise and got a movie into theaters just four years after ENT went off the air, well before this imagined "rest" period had run its course... and it was one of the most financially and critically successful Trek movies of all time.

Franchises don't need to "rest." They just need good movies. If you reboot or revive a franchise by making a good movie -- or at least a popular one, and it can be debated whether those are equivalent -- then audiences will respond to it no matter how much or how little time has passed since the last film.
I wasn't trying to suggest that there's a "rule" that studios have to follow...I was merely expressing my opinion, based on my observations of the patterns typical of super-hero movie franchises. You seem to see the seven Batman movies since 1989 as a continuous series with small interruptions, a la Bond. I see them as belonging to two distinct series of Batman movies, with a moderate pause between them.

Conventional wisdom is that where super-hero movies get sequels at all, they tend to make 3 or 4 films, and fans usually don't like 3 or 4 nearly as much as the first two.

Are Batman and Spider-Man examples of a new trend of super-hero franchises that keep churning out movies at a fairly regular pace into perpetuity, occasionally undergoing creative reinventions but never fully stopping? Time will tell, but there are always opposite extreme examples, like the Superman series spending two decades in development hell after Christopher Reeve.

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I don't know, maybe it's just me, but "World's Finest" just sounds too "Silver Age" . . .

It seems both old-fashioned and overly fannish.
FWIW (and you probably already know this, but indulge me), "World's Finest" wasn't supposed to be descriptive of the Superman/Batman team...it was supposed to be descriptive of the comic in which they were appearing...an anthology comic in which they were originally featured in separate stories, along with some others, a typical format in the 1940s. The title was World's Finest Comics, along the same lines as All-Star Comics, All-American Comics, More Fun Comics, etc. Superman and Batman didn't start sharing stories in the title until sometime in the 1950s.

I'm of the opinion that Batman's name shouldn't be first in the title, but they'd be idiots not to put him in the title. Unless they want to go for something like The Man of Steel vs. The Dark Knight, but that's not terribly marquee-friendly....
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Old July 23 2013, 12:54 AM   #326
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

If you want to be really retro, just call it Caped Crusaders.

(And the first person who suggests Super Friends should get zapped with heat-vision and a Batarang!)
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Old July 23 2013, 12:57 AM   #327
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Then I'm glad I held back, because I was going to suggest that.
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Old July 23 2013, 01:00 AM   #328
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

If you call it that, people are going to expect Wonder Woman and Aquaman, and that could get messy....
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Old July 23 2013, 01:06 AM   #329
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Cartoonist wrote: View Post
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Superman threw Zod against a wall, and he fell. We don't know if Zod was actually killed or not.
Seriously. Ever since MOS came out I keep hearing this line that Superman killed Zod in Superman II and still shocks me every time it comes up. I never, EVER thought or believed for a single second that Supes left them to die and rot at the bottom of that pit any more than I thought he left Luthor there to freeze. And we know that that wasn't the film makers intent because they filmed a scene with Zod and Co. being taken into custody that was only cut for time and pacing reasons.


They included the scene where Superman delivers Luthor (and ONLY Luthor) to jail. Whether they cut a Zod-in-custody scene for timing or for content, the fact remains they cut it, leaving the distinct impression that Luthor was the only one left alive to be taken into custody. Even the Richard Donner cut deletes the scene showing them alive, which leaves us to think he threw Zod to an icy death in that pit that's so deep we don't ever hear him hit bottom.

He also killed them in the comics, after the pocket universe Zod massacred the population on Superboy's Earth (same thing this Zod promised to do in MoS). Superman executed them with kryptonite. Superman also beat Doomsday to death in the comics. So not only was Superman killing consistent with the Reeves film, it was consistent with the comic books.

I remember seeing this scene for the first time when the movie made it's television debut.

You can see, in the beginning of this clip, that Zod & Co. are being lead off to the police vehicles.

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Old July 23 2013, 01:12 AM   #330
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

^ Can't really see them and I wouldn't have known they were being taken away if someone didn't point them out.
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