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Old June 12 2014, 01:34 AM   #2566
Professor Zoom
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

I thought the MOS How It Should've Ended got it spot on on what Superman should've done...

It's not about what he should've done during the fight, it's what he should've done well before the fight. Rather than talking to some priest, he talks to his Hologram Dad... who knows Zod... And comes up with a great solution...

So, there are solutions, it's not like Superman didn't have any choice, it's a fictional construct. The writers tried to create the illusion that he had no choice but to let Metropolis be beaten into sand--because they wanted that imagery, and that he had no choice but to snap Zod's neck. Those were creative choices...

But, they could've found creative choices to do something else....
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Old June 12 2014, 01:39 AM   #2567
Flying Spaghetti Monster
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
I thought the MOS How It Should've Ended got it spot on on what Superman should've done...

It's not about what he should've done during the fight, it's what he should've done well before the fight. Rather than talking to some priest, he talks to his Hologram Dad... who knows Zod... And comes up with a great solution...

So, there are solutions, it's not like Superman didn't have any choice, it's a fictional construct. The writers tried to create the illusion that he had no choice but to let Metropolis be beaten into sand--because they wanted that imagery, and that he had no choice but to snap Zod's neck. Those were creative choices...

But, they could've found creative choices to do something else....
You rock.. I was trying to make this same point but you made it much more eloquently. Thanks.

(no sarcasm)
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Old June 12 2014, 02:51 AM   #2568
AllStarEntprise
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
I thought the MOS How It Should've Ended got it spot on on what Superman should've done...

It's not about what he should've done during the fight, it's what he should've done well before the fight. Rather than talking to some priest, he talks to his Hologram Dad... who knows Zod... And comes up with a great solution...

So, there are solutions, it's not like Superman didn't have any choice, it's a fictional construct. The writers tried to create the illusion that he had no choice but to let Metropolis be beaten into sand--because they wanted that imagery, and that he had no choice but to snap Zod's neck. Those were creative choices...

But, they could've found creative choices to do something else....
What "How It Should Have Ended" forgets is that Jor-El only came up with the phantom drive collision solution AFTER he plugged in to the ship. Without that act, it would be like Superman coming up with a solution that does not follow anything we saw previously. Also at the time Superman had no reason to mistrust Zod or his intentions. It was only after Zod used the dream machine on Supes did Clark learn of his sinister plan.

It was a creative choice to have Superman fight the world engine and for Metropolis to be pancaked by the gravity beam. What is the alternative to that? How about Zod and his dozen or so fellow Kryptonians come down to Earth and conquer the planet with their bare hands.

In Superman II it only took Zod and 2 other K's to fully submit the Earth in under a day.

In The Supergirl Saga by John Byrne (Superman #21, Adventures of Superman #444, and Super #22). Zod and 2 other Kryptonians wreck Earth unopposed since that world's Superman had died 10 years earlier. Killing all 5 billion of Earth's inhabitants.
Here's a pic of their conquest.

Or Superman Last Son by Geoff Johns and Richard Donner (Superman 1978 and Superman II). In it Zod and a dozen followers manage to wreck Superman, the entire JLA and JSA IN ONE FRAKKING DAY. More photos of humans trying to resist after the JLA and JSA had been captured.


We saw Superman in MOS struggle to fight 2 Kryptonians in Smallville. If he was faced with the odds he faced in the aforementioned comics. Earth would be called New Krypton.
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Old June 12 2014, 03:01 AM   #2569
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
No. What they managed was to present one of many possible approaches to the character. In no way did that series have a monopoly on how to present Superman.
<shrugs> Doesn't change the fact that the animated series nailed the character. Tons of drama, tons of action, tons of actual heroics, tons of Superman being an actual superman.

Anyone can write a character anyway they want to. Doesn't mean they're doing a good job of it. Such as, you know, taking a superhero that all the other superheroes look up to as the epitome of what it means to be one, and making him a douchebag killer.
Good thing no one did that, then, isn't it. And, again, he eventually becomes a superhero others look up to--but not on his first day on the job.
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Old June 12 2014, 03:33 AM   #2570
Dennis
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
But, they could've found creative choices to do something else....
Yes, and that would have been rote and facile.

Let's have yet another Superman story without human consequences, because Superman can fix anything.

Hey, he can spin the world backward and un-destroy Metropolis!

Who other than eleven year-olds are going to buy tickets to that?

Wait a minute - what eleven year-old today would buy into that?
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Old June 12 2014, 04:18 AM   #2571
Mister Fandango
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Ovation wrote: View Post
Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
No. What they managed was to present one of many possible approaches to the character. In no way did that series have a monopoly on how to present Superman.
<shrugs> Doesn't change the fact that the animated series nailed the character. Tons of drama, tons of action, tons of actual heroics, tons of Superman being an actual superman.

Anyone can write a character anyway they want to. Doesn't mean they're doing a good job of it. Such as, you know, taking a superhero that all the other superheroes look up to as the epitome of what it means to be one, and making him a douchebag killer.
Good thing no one did that, then, isn't it.
Well, sure, except they did, in fact, do that.

And, again, he eventually becomes a superhero others look up to--but not on his first day on the job.
Oh, so now we're just randomly pulling things out of our asses, eh? In that case, I'll randomly counter that by saying he becomes a psychokiller instead. Hooray, I win!

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Old June 12 2014, 04:19 AM   #2572
Dennis
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
<shrugs> Doesn't change the fact that the animated series nailed the character. Tons of drama, tons of action, tons of actual heroics, tons of Superman being an actual superman.

Anyone can write a character anyway they want to. Doesn't mean they're doing a good job of it. Such as, you know, taking a superhero that all the other superheroes look up to as the epitome of what it means to be one, and making him a douchebag killer.
Good thing no one did that, then, isn't it.
Well, sure, except they did, in fact, do that.
No.
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Old June 12 2014, 04:33 AM   #2573
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
<shrugs> Doesn't change the fact that the animated series nailed the character. Tons of drama, tons of action, tons of actual heroics, tons of Superman being an actual superman.

Anyone can write a character anyway they want to. Doesn't mean they're doing a good job of it. Such as, you know, taking a superhero that all the other superheroes look up to as the epitome of what it means to be one, and making him a douchebag killer.
Good thing no one did that, then, isn't it.
Well, sure, except they did, in fact, do that.

And, again, he eventually becomes a superhero others look up to--but not on his first day on the job.
Oh, so now we're just randomly pulling things out of our asses, eh? In that case, I'll randomly counter that by saying he becomes a psychokiller instead. Hooray, I win!

Randomly counter with untrue statements you mean. You know facts will always trump subjective opinions.
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Old June 12 2014, 04:37 AM   #2574
Ovation
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
<shrugs> Doesn't change the fact that the animated series nailed the character. Tons of drama, tons of action, tons of actual heroics, tons of Superman being an actual superman.

Anyone can write a character anyway they want to. Doesn't mean they're doing a good job of it. Such as, you know, taking a superhero that all the other superheroes look up to as the epitome of what it means to be one, and making him a douchebag killer.
Good thing no one did that, then, isn't it.
Well, sure, except they did, in fact, do that.

And, again, he eventually becomes a superhero others look up to--but not on his first day on the job.
Oh, so now we're just randomly pulling things out of our asses, eh? In that case, I'll randomly counter that by saying he becomes a psychokiller instead. Hooray, I win!

Did you actually watch Man of Steel? "Douchebag killer" is in no way appropriate as a description of Superman or his actions at any point in the movie--and it most certainly was his first day on the job as a superhero.
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Old June 12 2014, 04:42 AM   #2575
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Perhaps he means "douchebag killer" as in "killer of douchebags?"
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Old June 12 2014, 05:20 AM   #2576
Ovation
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Indeed. Perhaps I've misunderstood all along.


Nah.
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Old June 12 2014, 05:25 AM   #2577
Nerys Myk
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Zod's goatee is pretty douchey.
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Old June 12 2014, 05:57 AM   #2578
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Dennis wrote: View Post
Perhaps he means "douchebag killer" as in "killer of douchebags?"
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Zod's goatee is pretty douchey.
Crap. I better keep a low profile, then. AND I'm growing a goatee. This doesn't look good.
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Old June 12 2014, 06:52 AM   #2579
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Ovation wrote: View Post

Superman has been many things over the years. The "purest character in all of comic books" lasted about 20 years and represented the most boring period of his run in comics (moreover, it was imposed by overzealous, self-appointed guardians of The Way Things Ought To Be--before and after the most stifling shackles of the early 50s to the early 70s, he was a much more interesting--and flawed--character).
Besides, everybody knows the actual purest of all superheroes is Billy Batson.

At least when Stargirl's not around.
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Old June 12 2014, 06:53 AM   #2580
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Dennis wrote: View Post
Corran Horn wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post

He said he'd destroy humanity, and no one has any good reason to disbelieve that.
Well, then stop him from flying back. That's why you're Superman.
Killing him put an end to that threat, good and permanent.

Actually, the "throwing him to the Moon" nonsense would have been outside the movie's whole approach to the character. He's not going to be pushing planets out of alignment and righting skyscrapers in one piece at superspeed any time soon.

What Clark did made sense. He had no advantage on Zod at all, and Zod had sworn to destroy humanity. The writers could have given him a gimmick as an out - something like a convenient Phantom Zone projector - but the writers may have been smart enough to know that such silliness was what killed the old Superman comics to begin with.

Corran Horn wrote: View Post
Being raised as Clark Kent is supposed to have rooted him in that sort of attitude for the most part. Otherwise, what's the point of being raised on Earth?
Dunno. Ask some of the boys from Kansas who go to war and kill people in the belief that it's necessary to defend their homes.
I actually have no problem with him killing Zod. A knock-down drag-out fight in the middle of Metropolis while throwing him through skyscrapers is slightly different.
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