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Old June 11 2014, 07:20 PM   #2536
Out Of My Vulcan Mind
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
I mean, why is there even an Arkham Asylum in the Batman movies? Practically none of his villains live long enough to be put in there.
Batman villains living or dying at the end of the movies from 1989 to the present is about a 50/50 proposition.
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Old June 11 2014, 07:33 PM   #2537
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

On the flip side, why have an Arkham Asylum if the same bad guys break out of there over and over again?
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Old June 11 2014, 07:39 PM   #2538
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Why have superheroes at all?

Just have the military come in with tanks and shit and completely destroy anyone who even considers doing something wrong?

Death to criminals, bitches! WOOO!
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Old June 11 2014, 09:21 PM   #2539
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
And considering that Superman is the noble icon of superheroes, he shouldb e the noble icon of superheroes. That's, like, his entire concept.
I actually agree with you. Superman's inherent goodness, his absolute conviction to try to do the right thing in every circumstance is a big part of why he's a wonderful character. However I don't think that really means anything unless it's tested. It was tested in the original Donner film, when he deliberately went against Jor-El's instructions and changed history in order to save Lois. It was tested in the John Byrne storyline from the 90's when Supes made the decision to execute Zod and his cronies in order to save the people of Earth. I don't see anything different in MOS. I keep seeing people criticizing the film for Superman's killing of Zod, but I don't see anyone saying what Superman should have done. What was his alternative? What choice did he have?
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Old June 11 2014, 09:29 PM   #2540
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Yeah, it's not like he had some gold kryptonite lying around.
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Old June 11 2014, 09:33 PM   #2541
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

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Maybe the statue is from the end of the movie, and he does something more heroic in this one to earn it.
What's more heroic than saving the planet?
Nothing.

So Supes had to snap some super dude's neck. Them's the breaks.
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Old June 11 2014, 09:38 PM   #2542
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Pictures leaked of a Superman Statue. I guess Superman DID rebuild Metropolis after the invasion of General Zod.

Awesome!
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Old June 11 2014, 10:07 PM   #2543
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

AgentCoop wrote: View Post
I actually agree with you. Superman's inherent goodness, his absolute conviction to try to do the right thing in every circumstance is a big part of why he's a wonderful character. However I don't think that really means anything unless it's tested. It was tested in the original Donner film, when he deliberately went against Jor-El's instructions and changed history in order to save Lois. It was tested in the John Byrne storyline from the 90's when Supes made the decision to execute Zod and his cronies in order to save the people of Earth. I don't see anything different in MOS. I keep seeing people criticizing the film for Superman's killing of Zod, but I don't see anyone saying what Superman should have done. What was his alternative? What choice did he have?
Well I suppose he could have done a choke hold on Zod until he passed out, but given their superhuman powers (and their proven ability to hold their breath even in outer space) it's doubtful that would have been very effective.

Plus Zod was threatening to fry the poor family unless Superman killed him, so it's not like he had a ton of time to think of an alternative anyway.
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Old June 11 2014, 10:18 PM   #2544
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Because for some reason superman fans want him to be an omnipotent all powerful god that never makes a mistake.
No, they want him to be the boy scout he's supposed to be. Superman is not an emo, brooding, will-kill-if-it's-easier-than-finding-another-solution vigilante. He's the definition of a superhero.
I see. Just like those who criticize NuKirk for not behaving the way TOS Kirk would in a given situation, you fail to account for the fact that, in each case with the new takes on these characters on film, they are JUST STARTING OUT. We're not getting them in their prime, fully formed and battle-tested many times. We're getting them as rookies, stumbling, making mistakes, doing the best they can under the circumstances and showing they still have much to learn.

I get that some people don't necessarily want stories set at that point in the character's history. I get that some people would make different choices as to how they portray those characters at that point in their history. But it's lazy and disingenuous to criticize characters for making rookie mistakes because their more experienced versions wouldn't do so--and such criticisms underlie much of the complaints lobbed at each character's behaviour.

In MOS, Superman is basically at his first day on the job. That bears repeating. His. First. Day. Considering what and whom he has to battle and overcome, it's rather remarkable the destruction was not a lot more significant and that Superman only killed Zod.

We're so used to seeing Superman and Kirk in their prime (the former is overwhelmingly so in the bulk of all his iterations, comics, small and large screen--the latter through nearly 50 years of repetition on the small screen and in most of the print versions) that we have a default expectation of watching them "at their best". In the case of Trek, it seems we can accept them at "less than their best" because, for so long, the same actors played the roles well past what would be expected of heroic characters in terms of age. In NuTrek and MOS, though, it seems some people simply cannot abide the filmmakers' choice to present us with these characters as rookies.

If Superman goes on to snap someone's neck as a matter of routine behaviour in several movies going forward, then fine, it will be worthy of complaining about distorting the character too much. But if it becomes a learning moment on the path to a more polished hero as he gains experience and maturity, then it becomes something of a minor nitpick to complain of it.

In the end, it is far more interesting to watch characters develop over the course of time as they learn from their mistakes and become better at what they do than it is to watch fully-formed, flawless characters who never make mistakes.
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Old June 11 2014, 10:23 PM   #2545
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Guess what? In the original Superman film, we also got Superman on his first day on the job. This bears repeating. His. First. Day. And we got someone who I would proudly call a hero, someone who was well-mannered, heroic, a bit witty, and most of all, someone everyone could look up as a hero. He was also someone who had authority. "Gentlemen, this man needs help."

I'm sorry, that's the character of Superman.. the true hero.. take it or leave.. and Goyer left it
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Old June 11 2014, 10:30 PM   #2546
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
Guess what? In the original Superman film, we also got Superman on his first day on the job. This bears repeating. His. First. Day.
After years of instruction from Jor-El, and he eased into things as Superman with very easy undertakings before facing his first major test.
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Old June 11 2014, 10:30 PM   #2547
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
Guess what? In the original Superman film, we also got Superman on his first day on the job. This bears repeating. His. First. Day. And we got someone who I would proudly call a hero, someone who was well-mannered, heroic, a bit witty, and most of all, someone everyone could look up as a hero. He was also someone who had authority. "Gentlemen, this man needs help."

I'm sorry, that's the character of Superman.. the true hero.. take it or leave.. and Goyer left it
Nope. Well, ok. First day (well, really more like first month, but I'll give it to you). But two important caveats. One--Luthor's scheme, while a serious problem, was not nearly the threat that faced MOS Superman--not even close. Two--Donner's Superman spent YEARS (over a decade) in the Fortress of Solitude learning from Jor-El. MOS Superman, about a couple of hours with the holographic AI Jor-El. BIG difference.
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Old June 11 2014, 10:31 PM   #2548
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Out Of My Vulcan Mind wrote: View Post
Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
Guess what? In the original Superman film, we also got Superman on his first day on the job. This bears repeating. His. First. Day.
After years of instruction from Jor-El, and he eased into things as Superman with very easy undertakings before facing his first major test.
And this.
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Old June 11 2014, 10:41 PM   #2549
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

^^^Also it should be said Reeve Superman had Silver Age powers which include time travel. Something we saw used in Superman 1978, by Superman to change something he didn't like (Lois' Death). Making the whole fiasco of Superman flying around California saving people and diverting Hoover Dam redundant, if Superman could just undo it by travelling back to before it all falls apart, which he does. If MOS had pulled a time travel fix to everything that caused by General Zod and his followers, audiences would have SCREAMED deus ex machina and or plot immunit.
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Old June 11 2014, 10:45 PM   #2550
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

TGhe point is, back then trhey knew how to write the character. You don't write Jason Voorhees as a guy with regrets, and you don't write Superman as someone who allows buildings to be leveled.

And that family... how am I supposed to care about that no-name family when Snyder didn't care enough to establish even them reacting to what happened.. or to even show them at all when it was all over. The "family" was a contrived way to to create a circumstance in which Superman would kill Zod and did not evolve organically from a desire to write Superman correctly.
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