RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,918
Posts: 5,478,250
Members: 25,052
Currently online: 485
Newest member: johnclever25

TrekToday headlines

New Star Trek Funko Pop! Vinyl Figures
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

QMx Mini Phaser Ornament
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

Stewart as Neo-Nazi Skinhead
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

Klingon Bloodwine To Debut
By: T'Bonz on Nov 25

Trek Actors In War Of The Worlds Fundraiser
By: T'Bonz on Nov 25

Star Trek: The Next Generation Gag Reel Tease
By: T'Bonz on Nov 24

Shatner In Haven
By: T'Bonz on Nov 24

Retro Review: Covenant
By: Michelle on Nov 22

Two Official Starships Collection Previews
By: T'Bonz on Nov 21

Saldana: Women Issues In Hollywood
By: T'Bonz on Nov 21


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 22 2014, 02:58 AM   #1996
Lance
Commodore
 
Lance's Avatar
 
Location: The Enterprise's Restroom
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Christopher wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
That the audience at large failed to take to Superman Returns has been largely attributed to confusion over what it was supposed to be. Some people just assumed it was 'Superman 5' (it isn't), something which IMO is compounded by it being bundled with the Reeve movies in boxsets and the like. When it really shouldn't be.
And that assumption on your part is what I disagree with. It's clearly meant to be an approximate continuation of the first two Reeve films, with a few elements reworked and modernized in the same way that modern Marvel comics modernize events from '60s comics while still pretending to be continuations of them. I mean, really, the similarities enormously outweigh the differences -- the Williams theme, the crystalline Kryptonian technology, the backstory of Superman and Lois having been lovers, Luthor's obsession with real estate and preference in female associates, Superman's quote of his own line about flying being the safest way to travel, the use of Marlon Brando as Jor-El... I mean, really, that is obviously a hell of a lot more than just an homage. It's meant as a sequel, but like many, many sequels and revivals, it updates and reworks elements of its source.
^ Fair point. My angle is that it "simply isn't" a part of the Reeve Superman continuity, but I can see the reality (as you say) is that it possibly is very much that.

That there was/is audience confusion over the matter remains true in either case. Nobody seems to have formed a consensus on what it is. Even now, nearly a decade later. Some people are fine with it just being a late, belated, slightly-rebooted fifth movie in the Reeve series. Others feel that it stands too much apart for it to ever 'be' that, and that they would've been much better cutting ties completely with what had went before. Maybe it would have been adopted by audiences better, as Man Of Steel appears to have been. We shall never know, as it remains in the realms of speculation.
Lance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 22 2014, 03:08 AM   #1997
urbandefault
Captain
 
urbandefault's Avatar
 
Location: Chicken pot, chicken pot, chicken pot pie!
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Whatever happened to suspension of disbelief?
__________________
"GARY BUSEY!" - Gary Busey
urbandefault is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 22 2014, 04:29 AM   #1998
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

I've said all along that Singer's mistake in Superman Returns was making it a gajillion-dollar Richard Donner fanfic rather than reinventing Superman according to his own fresh vision as he did with the X-Men. Sure, he tried to bring some new angles to it, but it was still too mired in a decades-old continuity. It wasn't plausible as a direct continuation and it wasn't fresh enough to work as something new.

But what I'm trying to get across is that it's very common for a revival of an old property, or a series based on a movie, or any continuation by new creators in a new context, to be an inexact continuation and partial reinvention, cherrypicking some elements while ignoring or changing others, even while pretending to be, at least roughly, a direct continuation. It's not even remotely unique to SR. Indeed, historically, I'd say inexact continuations are far more common than perfectly faithful ones. Audiences have become more picky about continuity in the age of home video and online episode guides, allowing exact story details to be more easily recalled.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 22 2014, 04:36 AM   #1999
Lance
Commodore
 
Lance's Avatar
 
Location: The Enterprise's Restroom
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Christopher wrote: View Post
But what I'm trying to get across is that it's very common for a revival of an old property, or a series based on a movie, or any continuation by new creators in a new context, to be an inexact continuation and partial reinvention, cherrypicking some elements while ignoring or changing others, even while pretending to be, at least roughly, a direct continuation. It's not even remotely unique to SR. Indeed, historically, I'd say inexact continuations are far more common than perfectly faithful ones. Audiences have become more picky about continuity in the age of home video and online episode guides, allowing exact story details to be more easily recalled.
Oh yes, definitely. I remember Doctor Who writer Terrance Dicks claiming that his method for continuity was "Whatever the audience might plausibly be expected to remember", or words to that effect - his point being that nobody in the age before home video could reasonably be expected to recall every little detail anyway. And Doctor Who wasn't prone to being rerun back in those days, at least not in the UK.

I strongly suspect it's why for example the continuity issues between The Wrath of Khan and The Search for Spock were immaterial, until home video made it possible to pore over every little detail.
Lance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 22 2014, 09:46 AM   #2000
Captaindemotion
Vice Admiral
 
Captaindemotion's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Out Of My Vulcan Mind wrote: View Post
Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
What was the TSWLM reference? Was the scene where Bond throws Blofeld (who is never named but it's clear who he's meant to be?) down a chimney not from FYEO? Or have I forgotten another reference?
From Wiki:

In The Spy Who Loved Me, when Bond meets Anya Amasova in the Mujaba Club bar, in Cairo, Egypt, she recites a few facts about his life to prove that she had researched him. She mentions facts about his career and his relationships, noting that he had "...many lady friends, but married only once. Wife killed..." at which point Bond immediately cut her off, snapping "You've made your point." Anya comments that he's surprisingly sensitive, to which Bond responds, "About certain things."

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
When Bond and Future Beatle Wife are introducing themselves at the bar by quoting from each other's dossiers. Quoted imperfectly from memory:

"Many lady friends, but married only once. Wife killed in..."
"Thank you, you've made your point."
"You're sensitive."
"About some things, yes."

EDIT: Curses, beaten to the punch!
Thanks guys, I'd forgotten that exchange.
__________________
Hodor!!!!!!!
Captaindemotion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 22 2014, 03:02 PM   #2001
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Lance wrote: View Post
I strongly suspect it's why for example the continuity issues between The Wrath of Khan and The Search for Spock were immaterial, until home video made it possible to pore over every little detail.
Or between "Space Seed"/TOS in general and TWOK. How come Khan's multiethnic followers are now all white and blond? How come they're in their early 20s when they were stranded as adults 15 years earlier? How does Khan know Chekov? Why is the Starfleet equipment and apparel among the refugees' supplies movie-era instead of TV-era? How can Kirk say he's "never faced death" after losing Gary Mitchell, Edith Keeler, his own brother and sister-in-law, his wife Miramanee, and his unborn child, not to mention dozens of people under his command? Back then, the movies' concern for continuity with TOS was fairly relaxed; it was seen more as a starting template than a strict gospel.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 22 2014, 07:11 PM   #2002
JacksonArcher
Vice Admiral
 
JacksonArcher's Avatar
 
Send a message via AIM to JacksonArcher
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

I seriously doubt that this Batman/Superman movie is going to have any ties to Christopher Nolan's Batman trilogy. I think the fact that Nolan, who spearheaded and produced Man of Steel, backed away from any involvement in this movie should be indication enough that this Batman/Superman movie will have its own continuity and present a brand-new Batman that doesn't have any ties or connections to Nolan's trilogy.
__________________
"Please... We need you to hope again... " - Professor Charles Xavier, X-Men: Days of Future Past
JacksonArcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 22 2014, 07:17 PM   #2003
Mach5
Rear Admiral
 
Mach5's Avatar
 
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

davejames wrote: View Post
I have a feeling the only carryover from the Nolan films will be the more grounded and realistic tone-- if only because that's the same tone they already established with MOS.
Huh? Compared to TDK trilogy, MoS was childish and silly as fuck.
__________________
"Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, it will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines."
― Bertrand Russell
Mach5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 22 2014, 09:18 PM   #2004
AvBaur
Captain
 
AvBaur's Avatar
 
Location: Munich, Germany
View AvBaur's Twitter Profile
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Mach5 wrote: View Post
davejames wrote: View Post
I have a feeling the only carryover from the Nolan films will be the more grounded and realistic tone-- if only because that's the same tone they already established with MOS.
Huh? Compared to TDK trilogy, MoS was childish and silly as fuck.
But not on purpose, surely? I got the impression that it took itself [way too] very seriously.
__________________
HIPSTERS IN HELL - my webcomic: http://www.hipsters-comic.com
AvBaur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 22 2014, 09:37 PM   #2005
Mach5
Rear Admiral
 
Mach5's Avatar
 
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

AvBaur wrote: View Post
But not on purpose, surely? I got the impression that it took itself [way too] very seriously.
For a Superman movie, perhaps. Compared to Nolan's Batman... That's an entirely different story. TDK doesn't even feel like a comic book movie most of the time. It's basically a character driven crime drama with thrilling action sequences.
__________________
"Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, it will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines."
― Bertrand Russell
Mach5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 22 2014, 09:44 PM   #2006
JacksonArcher
Vice Admiral
 
JacksonArcher's Avatar
 
Send a message via AIM to JacksonArcher
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Man of Steel suffered mostly from mediocre writing. Which is why I am glad Goyer is gone and Chris Terrio has replaced him for Batman/Superman.
__________________
"Please... We need you to hope again... " - Professor Charles Xavier, X-Men: Days of Future Past
JacksonArcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 22 2014, 10:54 PM   #2007
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

JacksonArcher wrote: View Post
Man of Steel suffered mostly from mediocre writing. Which is why I am glad Goyer is gone and Chris Terrio has replaced him for Batman/Superman.
Except the writing process in Hollywood is such a convoluted mess that the credited screenwriter may have contributed very little to the actual finished film. Essentially feature film writers are generally treated as contractors hired to tell the stories the directors instruct them to tell, and final scripts are often stitched together from numerous drafts by mostly uncredited writers. So if anything, as long as the sequel has the same director, I don't expect the storytelling to improve much.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 22 2014, 10:59 PM   #2008
Aragorn
Admiral
 
Aragorn's Avatar
 
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

JacksonArcher wrote: View Post
Man of Steel suffered mostly from mediocre writing. Which is why I am glad Goyer is gone and Chris Terrio has replaced him for Batman/Superman.
Goyer's work seems to suggest he's a great idea man. But like George Lucas, he needs a system of checks and balances so that the result isn't Blade: Trinity.
Aragorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 23 2014, 12:14 AM   #2009
Agent Richard07
Retired
 
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Mach5 wrote: View Post
AvBaur wrote: View Post
But not on purpose, surely? I got the impression that it took itself [way too] very seriously.
For a Superman movie, perhaps. Compared to Nolan's Batman... That's an entirely different story. TDK doesn't even feel like a comic book movie most of the time. It's basically a character driven crime drama with thrilling action sequences.
There's no set idea about how superhero movies should be. Times change and so do interpretations of what superhero movies are.
Agent Richard07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 23 2014, 12:26 AM   #2010
Mach5
Rear Admiral
 
Mach5's Avatar
 
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Agent Richard07 wrote: View Post
Times change and so do interpretations of what superhero movies are.
You're right, and the superhero subgenre was never strictly defined (movies like "Unbreakable" were certainly "out of the box") but just look at all the superhero movies that came after TDK. None of them came even close to being as grounded, as serious, and as mature as it. Not even its own sequel, TDKR. Shit, especially not TDKR.
__________________
"Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, it will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines."
― Bertrand Russell
Mach5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
batman, superman

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:46 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.