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Old January 25 2014, 10:04 PM   #1756
DWF
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Set Harth wrote: View Post
DWF wrote: View Post
Except that in The Dark Knight the mob puts a hit out on Ho and the Joker decides to do it and once done he burns the money and takes out the competition. We knew that all along that Harvey would become Two-Face, but that didin't happen ti after Ho was killed.
Who is "Ho"? ( obvious joke here... let it go... )

Are you talking about Lau?
Yes.
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Old January 25 2014, 11:07 PM   #1757
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

DWF wrote: View Post
The thing about the lie is there was noting to absove, Batman was innocent of the murders...
Yes, but he lied about it, along with Gordon. He created a false idol for all of Gotham to believe in. Imagine creating a lie that thousands, if not millions, of people believed in for eight years. People were arrested, perhaps unjustly, because of the Dent Act. I mean, an entire piece of legislation was put into effect because of the lie! Batman might have been innocent, but what he and Gordon did had huge ramifications.

...and what's worse is that The Dark Knight isn't a complete story without the events of The Dark Knight Rises to finish it.
Not necessarily.

In The Dark Knight, Bruce Wayne is looking for someone to take up the mantle. He thinks Harvey Dent is that person. Dent has a fall from grace, becomes Two-Face, and Bruce realizes (if temporarily) that he needs to be Batman in order to do what he sees as right in the end (take the rap for Dent's murders).

When he goes off on his Bat-Pod at the end of the story, it could have theoretically ended there. Batman would be a hunted vigilante (as he is in the comics). He could still operate as Batman. The police would just be after him. Gotham City would keep on believing Harvey Dent was a hero and all would be (somewhat) well.

However, The Dark Knight is the second part of a trilogy, and it is no more incomplete than the ending to The Empire Strikes Back.

And I kind of doubt that maintaining that lie was one of the reasons why Bruce Wayne became Batman, in the end Bruce Wayne is the person he was the start he still wants to retire and now he has do it as a criminal and there's no one to replace him.
The thing is that Batman isn't a normal kind of hero.

Bruce was figuring that out in The Dark Knight. When he thinks about quitting, Alfred is telling him to "endure". That Batman is a different kind of hero. The Joker keeps on testing him, demanding that he take off his mask and turn himself in, and the film explores Batman's methods and what he will do and how the ends justifies the means.

That's why I brought up the whole sonar concept: moral ambiguity plays a big part of the film. What will Batman do in order to achieve his goal and stop The Joker? What will that cost him? The Batman in The Dark Knight was still figuring out what kind of hero he was, and what he was willing and able to do in order to fight the criminal underworld.

At the end of The Dark Knight, Bruce doesn't think he can retire anymore. That's why when The Dark Knight Rises begins he is in self-exile. He's caught in this perpetual loop of internal pain and angst. He blames himself for Rachel's death, what happened to Harvey Dent, and he can't move on. He can't move on past Batman. That's why John Blake (and to a lesser extent, Selina Kyle and even Bane) helps Bruce find inner peace within himself because before he gave up on the idea of retiring. Then, Blake comes along, and he realizes that he doesn't need to live with the pain, that he can move on and give up the mantle.
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Old January 25 2014, 11:46 PM   #1758
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

JacksonArcher wrote: View Post
DWF wrote: View Post
The thing about the lie is there was noting to absove, Batman was innocent of the murders...
Yes, but he lied about it, along with Gordon. He created a false idol for all of Gotham to believe in. Imagine creating a lie that thousands, if not millions, of people believed in for eight years. People were arrested, perhaps unjustly, because of the Dent Act. I mean, an entire piece of legislation was put into effect because of the lie! Batman might have been innocent, but what he and Gordon did had huge ramifications.

...and what's worse is that The Dark Knight isn't a complete story without the events of The Dark Knight Rises to finish it.
Not necessarily.

In The Dark Knight, Bruce Wayne is looking for someone to take up the mantle. He thinks Harvey Dent is that person. Dent has a fall from grace, becomes Two-Face, and Bruce realizes (if temporarily) that he needs to be Batman in order to do what he sees as right in the end (take the rap for Dent's murders).

When he goes off on his Bat-Pod at the end of the story, it could have theoretically ended there. Batman would be a hunted vigilante (as he is in the comics). He could still operate as Batman. The police would just be after him. Gotham City would keep on believing Harvey Dent was a hero and all would be (somewhat) well.

However, The Dark Knight is the second part of a trilogy, and it is no more incomplete than the ending to The Empire Strikes Back.

And I kind of doubt that maintaining that lie was one of the reasons why Bruce Wayne became Batman, in the end Bruce Wayne is the person he was the start he still wants to retire and now he has do it as a criminal and there's no one to replace him.
The thing is that Batman isn't a normal kind of hero.

Bruce was figuring that out in The Dark Knight. When he thinks about quitting, Alfred is telling him to "endure". That Batman is a different kind of hero. The Joker keeps on testing him, demanding that he take off his mask and turn himself in, and the film explores Batman's methods and what he will do and how the ends justifies the means.

That's why I brought up the whole sonar concept: moral ambiguity plays a big part of the film. What will Batman do in order to achieve his goal and stop The Joker? What will that cost him? The Batman in The Dark Knight was still figuring out what kind of hero he was, and what he was willing and able to do in order to fight the criminal underworld.

At the end of The Dark Knight, Bruce doesn't think he can retire anymore. That's why when The Dark Knight Rises begins he is in self-exile. He's caught in this perpetual loop of internal pain and angst. He blames himself for Rachel's death, what happened to Harvey Dent, and he can't move on. He can't move on past Batman. That's why John Blake (and to a lesser extent, Selina Kyle and even Bane) helps Bruce find inner peace within himself because before he gave up on the idea of retiring. Then, Blake comes along, and he realizes that he doesn't need to live with the pain, that he can move on and give up the mantle.
Batman did go into retirement he wasn't seen for eight years and the injuries that Bruce Wayne should've ended his career as a superhero for good. He'd lost Rachel long before she died and what he might've done had there been no third movie is kind of besides the point since there was a third one.

Had the second movie been broken up into two movies, that might've been different as well, but they made the lie public and was a stupid move on Gordon's part to write that speech. But it was obvious that Gordon felt guilty about the lie.

Of course it's odd that Nolan woukd've made a Superman/Batman movie since he openly said he wouldn't do that. But then he also claimed there'd no Robin in his Batman movies.
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Old January 25 2014, 11:49 PM   #1759
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

The Dark Knight definitely tells a complete story. In fact, I think that thematically, the first two films work better without the third. BB and TDK between them tell the story of the redemption of Gotham City. Bruce becomes Batman to provide a symbol of hope and justice for a fallen city, and in so doing, he inspires the people to begin taking Gotham back from the corruption and lawlessness. But he recognizes that a masked vigilante is a dysfunctional sort of savior for a dysfunctional city. In order for Gotham to become a fully healthy, lawful community again, it needs to restore a working justice system and social structure. Batman can't provide that, but District Attorney Harvey Dent can, at least as a symbol to take Batman's place. So TDK is about Gotham maturing to the point that it doesn't need Batman to save it anymore. Batman's ostracism is the conclusion of that arc, the acknowledgment that Gotham has outgrown his methods and he'd be a liability if he remained.

So TDKR is kind of a thematic reversal. It doesn't build on what TDK established so much as reset things to where they were in BB -- the system torn down by the League, the city plunged into anarchy so that Batman would be needed again. Which is kind of a cheat. I guess the idea was that the lie Batman and Gordon told wasn't a truly legitimate foundation for that reformed civilization and the truth would come out eventually, but the way the truth came out was just kind of tacked on to a story about something else altogether, and it was kind of lost in the shuffle.
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Old January 26 2014, 12:13 AM   #1760
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

There's a long standing discussion or argument if you will about the heroes creating the villians and hence the need forthe heroes in the first place. And there's some merit in that argument, but in the case of Nolan's Batman movies and Man Of Steel if you remove the hero innocent people do suffer. Gotham's civil structure was rebuilt after the events in The Dark Knight on a lie so the system fell apart and Batman was needed to save the people.

What's worse about Man Of Steel is that the argument that heroes create the need for villains is that it was the EMH of Jor-El that created the problems in the first place. And as long as Batman and Gordon kept their lie alive the city became a target for the League. Ultimately as long as the lie persisted Gotham still needed Batman and always will, there never be a time that Gotham won't need Batman as The Dark Knight Returns comic book story proved.

In the end you can't take away the need for Batman, if that were possible he'd never be needed in the first place.
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Old January 26 2014, 02:47 PM   #1761
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
^Eh to each there own. I thought STID was the most disappointing film of 2013. MOS broke the trend of portraying the Richard Donner version of Superman. While STID rehased elements from ST09, NEM and TWOK. I was expecting more from STID than what we got.

With MOS I expected a new take on a classic character for his 75th anniversary. Which we did get and it has spawned a sequel, and a Justice League film. MOS isn't perfect, I agree. However I find it superior to Superman Returns, Superman IV, and Superman III.
STID was disappointing, but it was nowhere as bad as MoS, in my opinion. I mean, while STID was atleast a good movie on it's own and only an okay Star Trek movie, MOS was an average movie on it's own and a mediocre Superman movie.
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Old January 26 2014, 03:23 PM   #1762
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

STID was a generally fun movie with some significant flaws, but neither its heights nor its depths were extreme. Man of Steel had some parts that were brilliant and inspired, but unfortunately it had other parts that were utterly abysmal and horrible and wrong and poisoned the rest. In my blog review I called it "the best and worst Superman movie ever."
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Old January 26 2014, 08:21 PM   #1763
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Christopher wrote: View Post
The Dark Knight definitely tells a complete story. In fact, I think that thematically, the first two films work better without the third. BB and TDK between them tell the story of the redemption of Gotham City. Bruce becomes Batman to provide a symbol of hope and justice for a fallen city, and in so doing, he inspires the people to begin taking Gotham back from the corruption and lawlessness. But he recognizes that a masked vigilante is a dysfunctional sort of savior for a dysfunctional city. In order for Gotham to become a fully healthy, lawful community again, it needs to restore a working justice system and social structure. Batman can't provide that, but District Attorney Harvey Dent can, at least as a symbol to take Batman's place. So TDK is about Gotham maturing to the point that it doesn't need Batman to save it anymore. Batman's ostracism is the conclusion of that arc, the acknowledgment that Gotham has outgrown his methods and he'd be a liability if he remained.

So TDKR is kind of a thematic reversal. It doesn't build on what TDK established so much as reset things to where they were in BB -- the system torn down by the League, the city plunged into anarchy so that Batman would be needed again. Which is kind of a cheat. I guess the idea was that the lie Batman and Gordon told wasn't a truly legitimate foundation for that reformed civilization and the truth would come out eventually, but the way the truth came out was just kind of tacked on to a story about something else altogether, and it was kind of lost in the shuffle.
TDKR returns to BB, where Wayne mentions that Batman needs to be a symbol, so that everyone can be behind that mask, even if he is killed. That's all what TDKR is about.
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Old January 28 2014, 05:01 AM   #1764
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
The record so far:

1) The decision that their most successful superhero film property in recent memory is too grounded and serious to help set up a shared universe;

2) The embarrassing misfire called Green Lantern;

3) A Superman film that made decent dough but has proven to be controversial and divisive;

4) An announced Superman/Batman project that they can't seem to nail down the scope, focus, or timing of in relation to setting up the Justice League film.
1) Blame Christopher Nolan

2) Uh... GL more than doubled the gross of Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance

3) Only in the fanboy community. Regular folks don't care.

4) You need pals on the inside. Jennifer Garner, for example, has already seen her husband's new Batman suit.
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Old January 28 2014, 05:18 AM   #1765
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Bad Bishop wrote: View Post
The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
3) A Superman film that made decent dough but has proven to be controversial and divisive;
3) Only in the fanboy community. Regular folks don't care.
No, I've seen a lot of similarly mixed reactions from more mainstream critics. It's at 55% on Rotten Tomatoes, meaning opinions are pretty evenly divided. Glancing over the review excerpts, even many of the reviews marked positive complain about the excesses of the climax or the humorlessness of the film.
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Old January 28 2014, 05:44 AM   #1766
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Bad Bishop wrote: View Post
2) Uh... GL more than doubled the gross of Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance
Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance made $132.5 million worldwide against a production budget of $57 million. Green Lantern made $219.8 million worldwide against a production budget of $200 million. The latter is a much worse result.

3) Only in the fanboy community. Regular folks don't care.
The fanboy community and the critics were split, but you're right that the general public was much more positive. While Man of Steel has a 55% rating on Rotten Tomatoes from the critics, its audience rating is 76%, similar to its IMDB rating of 7.4, and it had a Cinemascore of A- on its opening weekend. Iron Man 3, on the other hand, has a Rotten Tomatoes rating of 78% from critics and an audience rating of 80%, while its IMDB rating is 7.4 and it had a Cinemascore of A.
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Old January 28 2014, 07:22 AM   #1767
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Out Of My Vulcan Mind wrote: View Post
Bad Bishop wrote: View Post
2) Uh... GL more than doubled the gross of Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance
Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance made $132.5 million worldwide against a production budget of $57 million. Green Lantern made $219.8 million worldwide against a production budget of $200 million. The latter is a much worse result.
Dammit, next time I'm bringing up Punisher: War Zone.
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Old January 28 2014, 10:40 AM   #1768
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Bad Bishop wrote: View Post
Out Of My Vulcan Mind wrote: View Post
Bad Bishop wrote: View Post
2) Uh... GL more than doubled the gross of Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance
Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance made $132.5 million worldwide against a production budget of $57 million. Green Lantern made $219.8 million worldwide against a production budget of $200 million. The latter is a much worse result.
Dammit, next time I'm bringing up Punisher: War Zone.
That made me snigger out loud like Beavis and Butthead.
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Old January 29 2014, 02:08 AM   #1769
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Bad Bishop wrote: View Post
The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
The record so far:

1) The decision that their most successful superhero film property in recent memory is too grounded and serious to help set up a shared universe;

2) The embarrassing misfire called Green Lantern;

3) A Superman film that made decent dough but has proven to be controversial and divisive;

4) An announced Superman/Batman project that they can't seem to nail down the scope, focus, or timing of in relation to setting up the Justice League film.
1) Blame Christopher Nolan

2) Uh... GL more than doubled the gross of Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance

3) Only in the fanboy community. Regular folks don't care.

4) You need pals on the inside. Jennifer Garner, for example, has already seen her husband's new Batman suit.
1) Didn't say he wasn't responsible.

2) Not an MCU/Avengers-related film to my knowledge. (I didn't even know it existed....)

3) Thank you, Christopher.

4) Bears no relation to what I said whatsoever.
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Old January 29 2014, 05:06 AM   #1770
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Out Of My Vulcan Mind wrote: View Post
Bad Bishop wrote: View Post
2) Uh... GL more than doubled the gross of Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance
Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance made $132.5 million worldwide against a production budget of $57 million. Green Lantern made $219.8 million worldwide against a production budget of $200 million. The latter is a much worse result.
Wow, I didn't realize Spirit of Vengeance actually made that much. I thought it was total and complete bomb that nobody went to see.
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