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Old January 23 2014, 04:11 AM   #1726
sojourner
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Villain bloat is the bane of all superhero movie sequels.
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Old January 23 2014, 04:40 PM   #1727
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

^This.
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Old January 23 2014, 10:29 PM   #1728
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea of multiple supervillains in a movie, and it's such a common thing in comics that it doesn't seem like it should be an issue at all.

But for some reason they can't seem to make the idea work at all in the movies.
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Old January 23 2014, 11:11 PM   #1729
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Well, it worked once (TDK). But that's because the story came first. If there's a good story calling for several villains, it can work, but it shouldn't be choosing the characters first and then build something remotely resembling a story around them.
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Old January 23 2014, 11:35 PM   #1730
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

To be fair, the Dark Knight had one villain. Joker. Harvey Dent was a victim.
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Old January 24 2014, 12:35 AM   #1731
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

sojourner wrote: View Post
Villain bloat is the bane of all superhero movie sequels.
Anybody tell SONY that?
They seem headed towards 6 in one film if the TASM2 sequel is a hit.
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Old January 24 2014, 01:00 AM   #1732
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Nolan's Batman movies all had multiple villains. Batman Begins had Ra's, Scarecrow and Carmine Falcone. The Dark Knight had The Joker, Two-Face and Sal Maroni. The Dark Knight Rises had Bane, Catwoman and Talia.

What made them work is because Nolan wrote or co-wrote the story and then added in the villains that best suited that story. Not the other way around. Ra's and Scarecrow made sense for Begins, for example, because the theme of the movie was fear and Ra's/Scarecrow just exemplified that. The Dark Knight was about escalation and chaos, and what better villain to use for chaos than The Joker? Two-Face, and more to the point Harvey Dent's gradual dissolution into Two-Face, fights into the theme of escalation and gradual chaos. With Rises, it was basically a disaster movie, and the theme was very much about pain and overcoming pain, and what better villain to deal with that than Bane? Etc etc.

With most superhero movies, it seems like villains are randomly picked. Spider-Man 3 is a good example of that. Sandman and Venom had no reason to team up with each other beyond a mutual hate/disdain for Spider-Man, for example. Beyond that, it just didn't make any sense. The same can be said for most superhero movies with multiple villains. If you're going to go that route, you better make sure it fits within the context and thematic foundation of the story.
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Old January 24 2014, 02:06 AM   #1733
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Kai "the spy" wrote: View Post
Well, it worked once (TDK).
I like The Dark Knight well enough, but the inclusion of Two-Face always felt tacked on to me. Batman Begins did a better job handling multiple villains in a way that suited the story.
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Old January 24 2014, 04:29 AM   #1734
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

I don't think Harvey's inclusion was tacked on at all. This was a movie about the Batman and Joker battling for the hearts and minds of the people of Gotham, with Batman trying to inspire and save them and the Joker trying to corrupt and destroy them. Harvey was the human embodiment of what they were fighting over. The duality of Two-Face fit neatly into the film's themes. Harvey Dent was the ideal that Bruce wanted to promote as a way of saving Gotham -- and himself, so he could create a Gotham that didn't need Batman anymore -- and Two-Face was the corruption the Joker wanted to create as a way of tearing down Gotham, destroying its greatest hope. Far from tacked on, Harvey is literally crucial to the story: he is the crux of the conflict between the hero and the villain. Remove him and the film loses most of its story.
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Old January 24 2014, 06:20 AM   #1735
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

With Luthor as one of the villains for MOS 2. The threat for villain bloat is tangible.
Luthor who has had a hand in creating Metallo, Parasite and Bizarro.



However I don't think MOS 2 be as crowded as TASM 2 and the future Sinister Six movie; with regards to villain overload.
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Old January 24 2014, 06:51 AM   #1736
Lance
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

As JacksonArcher already said, even though Two Face was arguably under-used to the point of neglect in TDK, he wasn't an after-thought by any means. His role in the story dove-tails perfectly with the themes of the script. I don't see how a TDK script without him in it would be an improvement (although it might not necessarily have been worse, either).

On the other hand, Spider-Man 3 screamed out to be a movie which just tied up the trilogy in a neat bow. The 'new' Goblin was okay for this purpose, Sandman too, but Eddie Brock/Venom really did create villain bloat in that script. He served no purpose by being there, and the movie would almost certainly have flowed a lot better without him.


(PS. Nice one sojourner on the phrase 'villain bloat'. Never heard that before. I'm gonna have to remember that one for my future discussions on this subject with my friends. )
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Old January 24 2014, 06:53 AM   #1737
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

You can also use it in the case where there's one really fat villain.
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Old January 24 2014, 06:58 AM   #1738
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

^ Like the Blob in X-Men Origins Wolverine

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Old January 24 2014, 07:22 AM   #1739
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

^Works for Live and Let Die as well.
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Old January 24 2014, 07:32 AM   #1740
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Worked in more ways than one for Return of the Jedi.
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