RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,573
Posts: 5,423,416
Members: 24,810
Currently online: 400
Newest member: toaster

TrekToday headlines

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Takei Has Growth Removed
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Retro Review: Tears of the Prophets
By: Michelle on Sep 12

New Wizkids Attack Wing Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Coto Drama Sold To Fox
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Braga Inks Deal
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Remastered Original Series Re-release
By: T'Bonz on Sep 11

UK Trek Ships Calendar Debuts
By: T'Bonz on Sep 10


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 20 2013, 04:14 PM   #61
iguana_tonante
Admiral
 
iguana_tonante's Avatar
 
Location: Italy, EU
Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Spock implication is that Kirk looks like the Nazi ideal.
Yeah, that's how I always took the line, too (especially compared with Spock's own very different appearance).

The joke works on two level, too, as it might also double as a quip about Kirk's command style, but with Spock's usual deadpan, it's hard to tell. I guess that's Vulcan humour for you.
__________________
Scientist. Gentleman. Teacher. Fighter. Lover. Father.
iguana_tonante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 20 2013, 04:20 PM   #62
The Old Mixer
Vice Admiral
 
The Old Mixer's Avatar
 
Location: Connecticut
Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

It's double entendre. The "face value" meaning is that the disguise should be convincing on Kirk. The "under the surface" meaning is a humorous implication about Kirk's command style. Whether or not Spock meant for it to be double entendre is debatable, but clearly Kirk recognized the "under the surface" implication. If you put the same line in Data's mouth, we'd probably assume that the double entendre was unintended..."out of the mouths of babes".
The Old Mixer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 20 2013, 04:31 PM   #63
Kinokima
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I could imagine that Germans have already grown tired of all those Nazi comparisons. Just like French grow tired of those stupid surrender jokes. It's been sixty years, almost 4 generations. Seriously, there is no responsibility left for what their ancestors did. I've been to Germany a couple of times, they are fine people.
The thing that makes the Nazis convenient villains is the label of Nazis not German.

Although of course Nazis are often shown to be German in media we can still separate them from the culture of Germany, since Nazis have their own specific culture if that makes sense.

But yes Germany of today should never be associated with Nazis. I have never been there but have met many nice people from there.

And besides Germany has admirably admitted their guilt during WWII, more so than many other countries for that matter.


MarioMonti wrote:
As to "Hogan´s Heroes": I truly and thoroughly enjoy it, it´s great comedy with fun characters. And like I said before, I´m not at all offended by that kind of humor or jokes, just like I´m not offended by Spock´s remark in POF - I just never understood it as being a joke.

When you say you enjoy Hogan's Heroes do you mean the German version or the US version? I understand in the German version much of the dialog was changed to remove things associated with Nazis. A lot of the jokes are different too.
Kinokima is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 20 2013, 04:56 PM   #64
marksound
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Planet Carcazed
Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

scotpens wrote: View Post
Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
Imagine Kirk and Spock had come to a planet ruled by (white) land/slave owners who brutalize their (black) slaves. Then, to blend in at a slave auction, they would have put on local clothing and Spock´s line to Kirk would have been "You should make a very convincing slave trader". Would you take that as a joke too?
Yes, actually I would take it as a joke. Nothing personal, but I think some people really need to lighten up (you should pardon the expression).
I always took it as a joke. The irony of Shatner and Nimoy being Jewish is just icing on the cake.

Man's inhumanity to man is a serious subject, but sometimes humor can bring a serious subject to a much larger audience than a lecture ever could.
marksound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 21 2013, 11:56 AM   #65
Mario de Monti
Captain
 
Mario de Monti's Avatar
 
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

Wow, you guys have certainly been busy posting, while I enjoyed yet another gorgeous summer day

After all that has been said here, I think my initial question has been answered: For one, we Germans really seem to be dealing with that part of (our) history differently than other countries do - or with their histories. But mostly I guess it comes down to whether or not you take Spock´s remark serious or as a comic relief.

M wrote: View Post
Being German living in Germany all my life I never had a serious problem with the line. I know that for some Germans the mere mention of anything Nazi-related in a not so serious tone can be considered too much, and I certainly understand that sensitivity, but personally, I don't feel there should be anything which can't be joked about. Spock's line to Kirk is meant in a light-hearted way, and I never saw it as anything other than that.
Well said, I basically see it the same way. Like I said it just never occured to me, Spock´s line was supposed to be a comic relief.

M wrote: View Post
As for the original German dub produced in the 70s: I was never a fan of that version of TOS. Growing up that was all I had, and I think for a long time it was the reason why I couldn't take the series very seriously. When I first saw the original versions on VHS I was blown away by the earnestness and I fell in love with it instantly. Today it's my favorite Trek after DS9.

I can't get behind the thought process of those people responsible for the "funny" German dub of TOS. Why try to make it into a show for children? Why the constant mispronounciation of certain names and terminologies (for some reason Kirk always calls Chekov "Pane", for example).
That of course is a matter of personal taste But I don´t really think the German dub made TOS a silly children´s show. I like it as much today (at age 39) as I did as a child. When I´m in a bad mood, I just have to pop in the German version of "That Which Survives" and I´ll laugh all troubles away


ShadowAngel wrote: View Post
Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
Patterns of Force& however is a completely different story: It had indeed been banned for decades
Patterns of Force was never banned here in Germany. Back in the 70's when the ZDF bought the rights to Star Trek they didn't choose the episode and thus it was never overdubbed. Later when Sat.1 did a re-run in the early 90's they too didn't bother with the episode because then it was rated "16 years and above" (while every other episode was "12 and above") and with that rating they could've only shown it after 10 PM, thus they decided against using the episode.
I stand corrected, regarding the episode being banned. But still the facts remain, that it hadn´t been shown in Germany for some 20 years, and that it got a completely different dub (and thus a different feel to it) as the rest of the episodes. That´s what I was going for.

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
@Mario and M: great information, thanks a lot. With all the changes, were the characterizations also vastly different? Was Kirk shown to be more impulsive, brazen, or gung ho (I'm thinking of the line from 99 Luftballons, "Jeder war ein großer Krieger/Hielten sich für Captain Kirk")?
Not really, no. They just added funny remarks and jokes, but basically to all the main characters. That of course made them appear "lighter". As to why Nena chose Kirk in her song, I´m not sure. But I guess it just rhymes well with the next line "Es gab ein großes Feuerwerk".

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I could imagine that Germans have already grown tired of all those Nazi comparisons. Just like French grow tired of those stupid surrender jokes. It's been sixty years, almost 4 generations. Seriously, there is no responsibility left for what their ancestors did. I've been to Germany a couple of times, they are fine people.
Thanks for saying that

Kinokima wrote: View Post
The thing that makes the Nazis convenient villains is the label of Nazis not German.

Although of course Nazis are often shown to be German in media we can still separate them from the culture of Germany, since Nazis have their own specific culture if that makes sense.

But yes Germany of today should never be associated with Nazis. I have never been there but have met many nice people from there.

And besides Germany has admirably admitted their guilt during WWII, more so than many other countries for that matter.
You´re absolutely right, thanks for seeing it that way. And of course Nazis are convenient as villains in movies because - well they were! At least those responsible for the death camps, human experiments, slave labor and all sorts of unimaginable artrocities - not the simple soldiers or civilians who just joined the Nazi party because everybody did so and because of the advantages it brought them. So yeah, go ahead and use them as villains or ridicule them, I have no problem with that. No problem rooting for Indiana Jones and laughing about the incomepetence and stupitity of the Germans


Kinokima wrote: View Post
When you say you enjoy Hogan's Heroes do you mean the German version or the US version? I understand in the German version much of the dialog was changed to remove things associated with Nazis. A lot of the jokes are different too.
I actually wasn´t aware of this difference, I only know the German version. Sounds like the perfect reason to finally buy that great show on DVD


So once again thanks to everyone for your opinions, comments and nice remarks And since my question is now answered, we can all go back to more important things - namely obsessing about some other minute bits of Trek

Mario
__________________
"Do you give me attitude, Spock?" - "I´m expressing multiple attitudes simultaneously, Sir. To which are you referring?"
Mario de Monti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 21 2013, 11:29 PM   #66
Shawnster
Fleet Captain
 
Shawnster's Avatar
 
Location: Clinton, OH
Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

Mario de Monti wrote: View Post

M wrote: View Post
Being German living in Germany all my life I never had a serious problem with the line. I know that for some Germans the mere mention of anything Nazi-related in a not so serious tone can be considered too much, and I certainly understand that sensitivity, but personally, I don't feel there should be anything which can't be joked about. Spock's line to Kirk is meant in a light-hearted way, and I never saw it as anything other than that.
Well said, I basically see it the same way. Like I said it just never occured to me, Spock´s line was supposed to be a comic relief.
I know you find the humor to be jarring in such a serious episode, but that may have been intentional. The creators may have felt such a serious subject that was still fresh in the memories of the viewing audience needed to have the comedic moments (Spock's line, McCoy's uniform issues, Kirk's comment about being "utterly destroyed" by the missiles, the hitting the broad side of a barn scene, etc...) were necessary to balance the darker elements of the story.
Shawnster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 22 2013, 09:43 AM   #67
Gov Kodos
Admiral
 
Gov Kodos's Avatar
 
Location: Gov Kodos Regretably far from Boston
Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

It's a joke, nothing more. It combines a bit of ribbing the captain, common enough in films of the time such as the raw egg trick in Spartacus where Tony Curtis sets up a magic trick then pulls a switch so Kirk Douglas splatters a raw egg on himself. It also is a dig at the Nazis themselves as we, the audience, know Kirk is nothing like the Nazis. That, too, is done frequently in comedies and dramas of the period. It is also was way, in story, for Spock to ride Kirk over his own commenting on the Gestapo uniform being the more attractive uniform.

KIRK: Yes, it's a shame yours isn't as attractive as mine. Gestapo, I believe.
SPOCK: Quite correct. You should make a very convincing Nazi.

God, spare us from the humorless.
__________________
We are quicksilver, a fleeting shadow, a distant sound... our home has no boundaries beyond which we cannot pass. We live in music, in a flash of color... we live on the wind and in the sparkle of a star! Endora, Bewitched
Gov Kodos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 22 2013, 10:51 AM   #68
Mario de Monti
Captain
 
Mario de Monti's Avatar
 
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
God, spare us from the humorless.
Quite so. And I believe I have made it clear, that I´m not one of them

Mario
__________________
"Do you give me attitude, Spock?" - "I´m expressing multiple attitudes simultaneously, Sir. To which are you referring?"
Mario de Monti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 25 2013, 12:10 AM   #69
Mr. Hengist
Lieutenant
 
Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

1. OK, I just took a look at the clip where Spock says "Your uniform, Captain. You should make a very convincing Nazi."

Spock was dressed in an SS uniform and they had just knocked out a Nazi so Kirk could also get his uniform and get out of his civilian clothes. So they could both infiltrate.

Spock says the line totally deadpan. So "in universe" I don't think it's supposed to be Spock deliberately making a joke. I think it's an example of Spock being "totally logical" and just referencing that Kirk will be able to disguise himself convincingly enough as a Nazi so they can infiltrate. I didn't find a clip for the prior part of the episode but Spock's uniform has a helmet, which I recall is to hide his pointy ears, and I believe there was dialogue earlier in the episode about how hard it would be for Spock to disguise himself because of his ears. So "logically" it follows directly from that.

HOWEVER--I do believe on another level it's a screenwriter's joke because we see the offended double take Kirk does when Spock says what he says.

So in universe it's showing us that logical Spock can be totally tone-deaf to the emotional content of what he is saying, even going so far as to not really being aware that he could be saying something totally accurate and logical on the literal level, but on another level, it could be very offensive. So it's also another one of those little "moments" in Star Trek where we glean a little insight into the personalities of the characters. That is Spock as the logically brilliant character but emotionally lacking in insight.

But of course it's also intended by the scriptwriter to be a joke, but the "punchline" of the joke is Kirk's offended double take.

Another aspect to this interchange is the context of the whole episode in relation to the Spock character. Gill's argument for replicating Nazi culture is that it is logical and efficient, yet even emotionless Spock who is depicted as totally clueless on the interpersonal emotional level, logically understands that a totalitarian culture is not really "logical" because it lacks the fundamental value of human life and freedom.

So it shows a contrast between the superficial notion of mechanical logic and efficiency which is sort of the surface shallow portrayal of the Spock character vs. the whole notion of Vulcan philosophy which is much deeper and life-affirming and not simply mindless and heartless "logic."

It may also have been a very subtle dig at the sort of militaristic ethos embodied in Star Fleet itself. Very subtle though. Remember these shows were all being produced during the Vietnam war.

So I think there is a lot of stuff going on there on a lot of different levels. I don't think it was "just a joke."

2. As far as the Southern civil war slave episode, they probably have done it on TNG on the holodeck by now, or in one of the spinoffs. If TOS had lasted a few more years they would have undoubtedly gotten to it at some point. Just like they did a Chicago gangster episode, the Nazi episode, Omega Glory episode, they would inevitably have done the Gone with the Wind/Southern Gothic setting for an episode on the parallel Earth where the South had won the civil war, or maybe they would have arrived on a new planet which based its entire culture on Gone with the Wind, and done a little science fiction morality play based on it.
__________________
Redjac Redjac Redjac!
Mr. Hengist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 25 2013, 02:37 AM   #70
The Old Mixer
Vice Admiral
 
The Old Mixer's Avatar
 
Location: Connecticut
Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

^The closest thing I can think of to something dealing with racism in America would be the DS9 episode in which Sisko has a vision of being a black science fiction writer in the 1950s.

There was a VGR episode that used the Civil War as a visual metaphor for a Q civil war, but I don't think it got into the sociological issues of the setting.
The Old Mixer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 25 2013, 03:05 AM   #71
Kinokima
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

I remember reading Deforest Kelley and Nichelle Nichols wanted to do an episode about racism or slavery since he was a white Southerner and she was African American but obviously that never happened.

Oh well the fact that they were real life friends is probably a better example than any episode could have done.
Kinokima is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 25 2013, 04:53 PM   #72
Kevman7987
Commander
 
Kevman7987's Avatar
 
Location: Erie, PA, USA
View Kevman7987's Twitter Profile
Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

Kinokima wrote: View Post
I remember reading Deforest Kelley and Nichelle Nichols wanted to do an episode about racism or slavery since he was a white Southerner and she was African American but obviously that never happened.

Oh well the fact that they were real life friends is probably a better example than any episode could have done.
I believe the idea would have had the dark skinned alien characters being racist against the light skinned ones that used to be slaves. It used the skin color reversal as its hook. I read that somewhere.
__________________
"Don't do it, Meat!"
"Don't do it, Cheese!"
Kevman7987 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 26 2013, 07:28 AM   #73
Mario de Monti
Captain
 
Mario de Monti's Avatar
 
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

@ Mr. Hengist

Thank you for your thoughts and your extensive post, I appreciate that

And of course, welcome to the TrekBBS. I hope you´ll enjoy it.

Mario
__________________
"Do you give me attitude, Spock?" - "I´m expressing multiple attitudes simultaneously, Sir. To which are you referring?"
Mario de Monti is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:46 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.