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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old December 9 2014, 07:12 PM   #1
enterprisecvn65
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Should TSFS had David put up a better fight before he is killed?

So we know the scenario. Kruge, to show Kirk he means business, orders his men to kill Either David, Savvik, or teen Spock. The Klingon pulls his knife and circles around to their backs. He raises the knife to kill Savvik, but David turns his head slightly and sees what's coming out of the corner of his eye and he heroically jumps the Klingon to save her. Only the fight is over in about 10 seconds, David gets manhandled the whole time, doesn't land what could be described as a single good blow before they end up on the ground and he takes a knife full force in the chest.

Now from a reality perspective I realize this is how it would have pretty much played out. David had a very slight build, was obviously not very strong and was a scientist with no training or real experience in hand to hand combat. All of which is backed up by the fact Kirk kicked his ass pretty handily in TWOK. The Klingon of course is bigger, stronger and a trained warrior. So on paper it's a pretty clear cut outcome.

But movies aren't reality. Thanks to the show Alias we now live in world where 100 pound women, like Jennifer Garner and Scarlett Johannson who posses no superpowers like Wonder Woman, regularly kick the shit out of trained male fighters, often taking on several at once, who are at least twice as big and probably 4 or 5 times as strong and these women are able to do so because their "special training and skills" and things like size and strength play no factor in these fights.

So with that in mind do you think the makers of the film should have let David die after putting up at least some what of a fight? I'm not saying it had to be something ridiculous like a 5 minute Kirk style brawl or that David actually was winning against the Klingon and the second one had to step and kill David. But personally I think it would have been nice to see David put up a decent struggle andd land at least a few good blows and maybe appear for a few seconds like he he might have a chance instead of getting totally creamed like he did. After all was basically a good character. He loved his mother, bonded with Kirk at the end of TWOK, and he did sacrifice himself to save Savvik. Yes he did a bad thing in using protomatter but that doesn't mean he was a bad guy.

I know he wasn't an indispensible character or anything of that nature, but I think he did enough to have at least a little emotional connection with a lot of the ST audience and I would have liked to see him get to make more of a stronger last stand than getting wasted so easily. Especially after Kruge had referred to him as a weakling human, it would have been nice for him to prove Kruge wrong that, even though he doesn't win, he shows that he isn't a weakling. The way he died totally affirmed that Kruge was correct in his insult.

Oh well just my two cents. Shame that in real life he died young as well.

Last edited by enterprisecvn65; December 9 2014 at 08:52 PM.
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Old December 9 2014, 07:24 PM   #2
gottacook
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Re: Should TSFS had David put up a better fight before he is killed?

I always just chalked it up to Nimoy's inexperience as a film director.
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Old December 9 2014, 08:42 PM   #3
Zippo and Flask
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Re: Should TSFS had David put up a better fight before he is killed?

David should have died after having accepted the offer of participating in a Klingon tea ceremony.
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Old December 9 2014, 09:01 PM   #4
Sran
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Re: Should TSFS had David put up a better fight before he is killed?

enterprisecvn65 wrote: View Post
But movies aren't reality. Thanks to the show Alias we now live in world where 100 pound women, like Jennifer Garner and Scarlett Johannson who posses no superpowers like Wonder Woman, regularly kick the shit out of trained male fighters, often taking on several at once, who are at least twice as big and probably 4 or 5 times as strong and these women are able to do so because their "special training and skills" and things like size and strength play no factor in these fights.
It may surprise you to read this, but strength isn't always the deciding factor in a fight. Knowing where to hit someone is more important than being able to hit someone over and over again.

As far as David's death is concerned, I'm satisfied with it. His putting up a fight would not have significantly changed the story and was therefore unnecessary.

--Sran
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Old December 9 2014, 09:20 PM   #5
SicOne
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Re: Should TSFS had David put up a better fight before he is killed?

For the purposes of movie pacing, it was necessarily to kill his ass and get on with the remainder of the movie. Best done quickly. He gave a token effort, stepped up to the plate, and was hit out of the park. And you got to see the result it had on Kirk. A drawn-out fight wouldn't have necessarily given the moment any more gravitas.

For the purposes of in-universe explanation, having David go down without much of a fight would only reinforce the Klingons' belief that humans were weak and unworthy, thereby causing them to underestimate the humans' abilities as opponents. Overconfidence was as much Kruge's enemy as Kirk was.

Well, that and an idiot like Maltz staying aboard the BoP. What kind of idiot serves his brutal commander and can't tell his voice from Kirk's, no matter how well he inflects it? Or can't operate a transporter's scanner and identify not only a human and Vulcan from a Klingon, but the fact that he's transporting two individuals up very closely together?

Yeah, I know, I know. If he didn't do it, Kirk and Spock would have perished on Genesis. I'm just sayin', man.
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Old December 9 2014, 09:32 PM   #6
f14peter
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Re: Should TSFS had David put up a better fight before he is killed?

the fight transpired exactly has it should have, and I personally would have found it far less believable had David been able to hang in it much longer than he did.

Saavik, with her Starfleet training could have put up a more plausible effort.

It also served the story ... David, who knew he had none-chance, knowing all he had to look forward to was a D'k tahg in the gut, defended Saavik (and Spock 2.0) without hesitation. Not unlike his father, he acted without concern for himself to save his comrades.

Had the storyline of a romance between David and Saavik been retained, it would have meant even more ... the utter pointlessness of his struggle.
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Old December 9 2014, 11:17 PM   #7
Timo
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Re: Should TSFS had David put up a better fight before he is killed?

Well, that and an idiot like Maltz staying aboard the BoP. What kind of idiot serves his brutal commander and can't tell his voice from Kirk's, no matter how well he inflects it? Or can't operate a transporter's scanner and identify not only a human and Vulcan from a Klingon, but the fact that he's transporting two individuals up very closely together?
I wouldn't expect the recognizing of voices to be an option with the background noises of an entire planet dying. As for transporter scanners, those have never been particularly good at identifying what is being transported - which supposedly is why a transportee better have an activated communications device with him or her. The default setting of the device seems to be "everything touching the comm beacon", while the user can say "three to beam up" if he or she wants the transporter operator to override, have a look at the sensors, and tag the closest three distinct entities before sliding the energizers.

Really, were Maltz the very last Klingon aboard (we don't know this - an underling of his may have been operating the transporter from the transporter room on his command), he'd already have his hands full and no spare time for studying sensor readings.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old December 9 2014, 11:48 PM   #8
loghaD
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Re: Should TSFS had David put up a better fight before he is killed?

I wouldn't have minded seeing him put up a bit more of a fight, but on the whole I'm satisfied.

I feel David was always portrayed as a gentle spirit, not interested in or capable of fighting; all the more tragic that he should die in the crossfire between two galactic superpowers fighting over control of a device that he and his mother developed for humanitarian use.
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Old December 10 2014, 12:32 AM   #9
enterprisecvn65
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Re: Should TSFS had David put up a better fight before he is killed?

Sran wrote: View Post
enterprisecvn65 wrote: View Post
But movies aren't reality. Thanks to the show Alias we now live in world where 100 pound women, like Jennifer Garner and Scarlett Johannson who posses no superpowers like Wonder Woman, regularly kick the shit out of trained male fighters, often taking on several at once, who are at least twice as big and probably 4 or 5 times as strong and these women are able to do so because their "special training and skills" and things like size and strength play no factor in these fights.
It may surprise you to read this, but strength isn't always the deciding factor in a fight. Knowing where to hit someone is more important than being able to hit someone over and over again.

As far as David's death is concerned, I'm satisfied with it. His putting up a fight would not have significantly changed the story and was therefore unnecessary.

--Sran
Try to be a little more smarmy next time with your opening sentence.

And I hate to tell you this but there comes a point where the gap between size and strength is simply too big to ignore. You get two people where one might be somewhat bigger and stronger than the other, but is not quite as skilled a fighter, then yes it is possible for the smaller person to win.

But you put women against men twice their size with 4 to 5 more times their strength, assuming the man is basically competent in fighting there is, NO WAY that a 100 lb woman beats the hell out of him because of "special training" and you're living in a dream world if you believe otherwise. Why do you think there are weight classes in boxing? Because a world class middleweight fighter like Sugar Ray Leonard would most likely lose to even above average heavyweights because the size disadvantage is just too great.

Yeah I'm sure there are some women out there who can kick the hell out of some men but not in the way films want us to believe.

But if it makes you feel better to believe a woman like Scarlett Johannson who is a buck ten with small muscles can lay waste to a much larger, stronger man (sometimes whole groups of them) who is supposed to know how to fight himself because of some magical special training she has, then knock yourself out. I'm sure you also believe that if you get a better pilot behind the controls of a WWII era fighter they could take out a F-22 flown by someone not quite as skilled in flight dynamics, but still competent and the gap in the performance between the aircraft is no factor.

Oh wait I forgot......Johnanson was trained by the KGB......That must have some kind of training considering the KGB disbanded before she was even born. THAT explains everything
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Old December 10 2014, 12:36 AM   #10
MacLeod
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Re: Should TSFS had David put up a better fight before he is killed?

Short answer no.

Longer answer, in real life some people are better fighters than others. There is no reason for David as a scientist to learn how to fight, how many of us actually learn how to fight?
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Old December 10 2014, 04:44 AM   #11
Sran
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Re: Should TSFS had David put up a better fight before he is killed?

enterprisecvn65 wrote: View Post
Nothing to see here, folks.
I'm afraid you missed the point of my initial paragraph. You're welcome to read my post again, of course.

--Sran
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Old December 10 2014, 05:08 AM   #12
Melakon
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Re: Should TSFS had David put up a better fight before he is killed?

It would have been somewhat of a surprise if David, apparently a civilian with no Starfleet self defense training, had managed to survive against a Klingon for even 5 seconds.
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Old December 10 2014, 06:19 AM   #13
Lance
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Re: Should TSFS had David put up a better fight before he is killed?

Yeah, to me it's entirely realistic that David wouldn't necessarily be able to put up much of a fight. He's A) a civilian; B) a scientist; and C) facing up to a Klingon warrior.
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Old December 10 2014, 09:28 AM   #14
gottacook
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Re: Should TSFS had David put up a better fight before he is killed?

Also: There's no music during the fight. Not once in the TV series (please correct me if I'm wrong) did personal combat occur without music. The TSFS scene loses impact because of its absence. For this reason alone (being long enough to support a cue) the scene perhaps should have been double the length.

(The later Kirk/Kruge battle is largely without music too, but the dying planet is very noisy by that point in the story.)
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Old December 10 2014, 04:09 PM   #15
Trek Survivor
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Re: Should TSFS had David put up a better fight before he is killed?

To me, it is just fine the way it is.
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