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Old July 19 2013, 01:27 AM   #16
Irishman
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Captain Nebula wrote: View Post
According to Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise, it was the Ti-Ho that was renamed to Enterprise-A.
That was Shane Johnson'r production. As creative and awesome as it was, he wasn't affiliated with the films, so his identification of the ship as the Ti-Ho is not official.
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Old July 19 2013, 04:07 AM   #17
C.E. Evans
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Upon closer examination I believe it's actually unlikely it's the Yorktown as we just saw that ship earlier in the movie:

CARTWRIGHT: We don't know. Get me the Yorktown.
YORKTOWN CAPTAIN: (on viewscreen) Emergency channel zero one three zero. Code red. It has been three hours since our contact with the alien Probe. All attempts at regaining power have failed.
CARTWRIGHT: It's using forms of energy we do not understand.
FEDERATION PRESIDENT: Can you protect us?
CARTWRIGHT: We are launching everything we have.
YORKTOWN CAPTAIN: (on viewscreen) Our systems engineers are trying to deploy a makeshift solar-sail. We have high hopes that this will, if successful, generate power to keep us alive.

Theoretically, everyone aboard Yorktown might have suffocated in the icy cold of space, so you had an empty starship looking for a new captain.
On the other hand Scotty's remark of the E-A being a "new ship" (in the subsequent movie) seems to contradict this idea.
Not really, because if the Yorktown was crippled and had to be towed back to Earth for repairs, her captain and some of his crew could have been reassigned somewhere else while the ship was in dock. Starfleet could have made the decision to rename the ship the Enterprise-A based solely on her being the only available Constitution-class ship on hand at the time. For all intents and purposes, she would still be a new ship for Kirk and the TOS gang.

I imagine a similar situation played out for Picard and the TNG gang following the loss of the Enterprise-D in which an existing Sovereign-class ship in dock was renamed the Enterprise-E.
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Old July 19 2013, 02:51 PM   #18
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Just seems a bit daft to rename an already-serving starship from Yorktown to Enterprise-A just for Kirk and his crew. It's more likely that this ship was about to be commissioned Taiho (yeah, I know the book said Ti-Ho...) and was changed to E-A at the proverbial last minute. It's also likely that (prior to ST3) originally the Enterprise name was to be shifted to the Excelsior-class once the original E was retired in due time, but that events of ST3 and subsequent problems with the Excelsiors led to a temporary shelving of the Ex until the warp drive situation was figured out, hence the continuation of the Con-refit of which Taiho/E-A was one of the last new builds. Your mileage may vary, but that's my theory.
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Old July 19 2013, 07:38 PM   #19
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

SicOne wrote: View Post
Just seems a bit daft to rename an already-serving starship from Yorktown to Enterprise-A just for Kirk and his crew. It's more likely that this ship was about to be commissioned Taiho (yeah, I know the book said Ti-Ho...) and was changed to E-A at the proverbial last minute.
Actually, that's no more likely than if the ship was the Yorktown. Starfleet wanted to reward Kirk with a new Enterprise and chose another Constitution-class ship. It could have easily been any vessel of that design that was in dock at the time, including the Yorktown.

In regards to the origin of the Enterprise-A, there's more than one theory that works.
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Old July 19 2013, 08:56 PM   #20
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Definitely so. But assuming that the ship was a newbuild carries the connotation that Starfleet still thought these ships were hot stuff. And I'd like to steer clear of such an idea for multiple reasons:

-The ST:TMP vessel was considered outdated and ripe for scrapping, despite the refit.
- We never see these ships after the last TOS movie (at least not intact and in use).
- ST3 makes a big deal about Starfleet wanting to upgrade to Excelsior, ST6 has the new model in regular use for the third year at least, and ST:GEN then shows the upgrade in full swing with more ships and variants coming off the production lines.
- Apart from the ST:TMP ship, the only Constitution we ever really get to see is the E-A anyway - and she shows signs of being another refit, what with her TOS-style shuttlebay (forced perspective issues notwithstanding, on both sides) and GNDN pipes and whatnot. All other uses of the Constitution shape are inconclusive, ranging from mere fragments glimpsed in ST4 to generic silhouettes being used in the charts of ST6.

From Starfleet's viewpoint, building an all-new ship just for Kirk would be silly. Donating a useful ship to him would be silly. But having him wear out an already obsolete ship would be perfect, as it would serve as a symbolic reward, a factual punishment, and an elegant means of waste disposal!

On the other side of the issue, Kirk at the end of ST6 seems to think there's still oomph left in the ship, enough for another crew to take over. For all we know (and Ashes of Eden notwithstanding), this is what happens - but Starfleet takes the flashy name off this ship and gives it to the latest pet project instead, so Kirk's second starship now continues service under some other name...

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Old July 19 2013, 09:00 PM   #21
Timo
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Definitely so. But assuming that the ship was a newbuild carries the connotation that Starfleet still thought these ships were hot stuff. And I'd like to steer clear of such an idea for multiple reasons:

-The ST:TMP vessel was considered outdated and ripe for scrapping, despite the refit.
- We never see these ships after the last TOS movie (at least not intact and in use).
- ST3 makes a big deal about Starfleet wanting to upgrade to Excelsior, ST6 has the new model in regular use for the third year at least, and ST:GEN then shows the upgrade in full swing with more ships and variants coming off the production lines.
- Apart from the ST:TMP ship, the only Constitution we ever really get to see is the E-A anyway - and she shows signs of being another refit, what with her TOS-style shuttlebay (forced perspective issues notwithstanding, on both sides) and GNDN pipes and whatnot. All other uses of the Constitution shape are inconclusive, ranging from mere fragments glimpsed in ST4 to generic silhouettes being used in the charts of ST6.

From Starfleet's viewpoint, building an all-new ship just for Kirk would be silly. Donating a useful ship to him would be silly. But having him wear out an already obsolete ship would be perfect, as it would serve as a symbolic reward, a factual punishment, and an elegant means of waste disposal!

On the other side of the issue, Kirk at the end of ST6 seems to think there's still oomph left in the ship, enough for another crew to take over. For all we know (and Ashes of Eden notwithstanding), this is what happens - but Starfleet takes the flashy name off this ship and gives it to the latest pet project instead, so Kirk's second starship now continues service under some other name...

The real question is, how would a "solar-sail" generate power?
The same way a regular sail can generate drinking water: you "deploy" it in a "makeshift" manner!

(With regular sails, the routine trick is to make a funnel out of it for collecting rainwater. With a lightsail, you could again make a "funnel", using the reflective properties to mirror sunlight into a hot focus.)

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Old July 19 2013, 09:27 PM   #22
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
^^^
It's just as valid an idea as her being an all-new build is.
That's what FASA postulated in the Star Trek IV RPG Sourcebook Update - that she was a new build, originally supposed to be named the USS Atlantis, and then renamed Enterprise following the Whale Probe incident.

Yeah, there are at least 3 or 4 different origin stories amongst the fandom of where the E-A came from, all possible, none proven or dis-proven either way.
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Old July 19 2013, 11:46 PM   #23
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

But if it wasn't a newbuild, why all of the shipwide problems described in ST5? If it was an old Constitution recently refitted into new configuration, Starfleet has supposedly enough experience in refitting by now to not release a phucked-up ship into service, especially one bearing the name Enterprise. That has me thinking newbuild with some significant quality-control issues.
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Old July 19 2013, 11:57 PM   #24
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

The same could be said for a refitted or recently repaired old ship, especially if she's launched before she's truly ready. She could have a fine engine that works brilliantly, but not all the doors work properly.
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Old July 20 2013, 05:49 AM   #25
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Was there a TOS Constitution named Yorktown, to do a refit of in the first place?
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Old July 20 2013, 05:54 AM   #26
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

SicOne wrote: View Post
Was there a TOS Constitution named Yorktown, to do a refit of in the first place?
Yes.

(The only TOS episode which mentioned it was "Obsession.")
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Old July 20 2013, 02:53 PM   #27
Timo
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Not that the episode would have actually told us what class the Yorktown represented, mind you. Even if the name "starship" is only applicable to the cream of the cream, and only one ship class at a time is built to those specs, it would stand to reason that there would always be at least three starship classes in simultaneous operation: the "current" design, the "past" design and the "future" design.

We saw seven starships (almost) identical in shape to Kirk's: the Constellation, the Defiant, the Exeter, the Excalibur, the Lexington, the Hood and the Potemkin. There was also a ship shaped like Kirk's but with the name illegible in the TOS_R version of "Court Martial", intended to be the Intrepid but portrayed in a manner contrary to the dialogue of the episode. Any of these could have been scheduled for a refit, and we only know the first two missed it for certain... (Although apparently, one was left unrefitted for Starfleet Museum, as per "Relics".)

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Old July 21 2013, 12:37 AM   #28
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Timo wrote: View Post
The same way a regular sail can generate drinking water: you "deploy" it in a "makeshift" manner!

Timo Saloniemi
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Old July 23 2013, 02:34 AM   #29
Anduril
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Upon closer examination I believe it's actually unlikely it's the Yorktown as we just saw that ship earlier in the movie:

CARTWRIGHT: We don't know. Get me the Yorktown.
YORKTOWN CAPTAIN: (on viewscreen) Emergency channel zero one three zero. Code red. It has been three hours since our contact with the alien Probe. All attempts at regaining power have failed.
CARTWRIGHT: It's using forms of energy we do not understand.
FEDERATION PRESIDENT: Can you protect us?
CARTWRIGHT: We are launching everything we have.
YORKTOWN CAPTAIN: (on viewscreen) Our systems engineers are trying to deploy a makeshift solar-sail. We have high hopes that this will, if successful, generate power to keep us alive.

Theoretically, everyone aboard Yorktown might have suffocated in the icy cold of space, so you had an empty starship looking for a new captain.
On the other hand Scotty's remark of the E-A being a "new ship" (in the subsequent movie) seems to contradict this idea.
Not really, because if the Yorktown was crippled and had to be towed back to Earth for repairs, her captain and some of his crew could have been reassigned somewhere else while the ship was in dock. Starfleet could have made the decision to rename the ship the Enterprise-A based solely on her being the only available Constitution-class ship on hand at the time. For all intents and purposes, she would still be a new ship for Kirk and the TOS gang.

I imagine a similar situation played out for Picard and the TNG gang following the loss of the Enterprise-D in which an existing Sovereign-class ship in dock was renamed the Enterprise-E.
Sometimes, people have a hard time not taking what the characters say as gospel. "New ship" for instance. You have to look at it from their point of view sometimes.
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Old July 23 2013, 11:31 AM   #30
C.E. Evans
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Anduril wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Upon closer examination I believe it's actually unlikely it's the Yorktown as we just saw that ship earlier in the movie:

CARTWRIGHT: We don't know. Get me the Yorktown.
YORKTOWN CAPTAIN: (on viewscreen) Emergency channel zero one three zero. Code red. It has been three hours since our contact with the alien Probe. All attempts at regaining power have failed.
CARTWRIGHT: It's using forms of energy we do not understand.
FEDERATION PRESIDENT: Can you protect us?
CARTWRIGHT: We are launching everything we have.
YORKTOWN CAPTAIN: (on viewscreen) Our systems engineers are trying to deploy a makeshift solar-sail. We have high hopes that this will, if successful, generate power to keep us alive.

Theoretically, everyone aboard Yorktown might have suffocated in the icy cold of space, so you had an empty starship looking for a new captain.
On the other hand Scotty's remark of the E-A being a "new ship" (in the subsequent movie) seems to contradict this idea.
Not really, because if the Yorktown was crippled and had to be towed back to Earth for repairs, her captain and some of his crew could have been reassigned somewhere else while the ship was in dock. Starfleet could have made the decision to rename the ship the Enterprise-A based solely on her being the only available Constitution-class ship on hand at the time. For all intents and purposes, she would still be a new ship for Kirk and the TOS gang.

I imagine a similar situation played out for Picard and the TNG gang following the loss of the Enterprise-D in which an existing Sovereign-class ship in dock was renamed the Enterprise-E.
Sometimes, people have a hard time not taking what the characters say as gospel. "New ship" for instance. You have to look at it from their point of view sometimes.
Sometimes, people have a hard time of realizing that there's more than one way of looking at things. "New ship" could simply mean an old ship with a new name, for example. You have to look at it from the point of view that there's other possibilities sometimes.
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