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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old July 21 2013, 05:40 PM   #16
Yeoman Basha
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

At the beginning of STID, the writers definitely regressed Kirk's character because they wanted to give him the story arc of re-earning the captain's chair. The party line that I heard in several interviews was that Kirk got the captain's chair in the first film, but he truly earned it in the second film.

And to be fair, there was a lot of criticism after XI that Kirk had become captain too fast, so the writers were trying to address that. But IMO they laid it on too thick at the beginning of STID. Kirk starts the film by accidentally stunning his and McCoy's "ride" leading to the crazy jump off a cliff, and then we get Scotty chastising Kirk for putting the Enterprise at the bottom of the ocean. We also get a line from Sulu when the shuttle is failing, where he says something to the effect of, "I told the captain that the shuttle wouldn't be able to take this." Followed by Kirk's nonchalant, "So they saw us, big deal." Then of course the threesome with the Caitians, and it's also strongly implied that Kirk had a fling with Christine Chapel and dumped her.

So yeah, the writers went overboard with the immature playboy stuff in the early part of STID, but it was all in the name of giving Kirk a character arc where he could grow up (having Kirk's surrogate father die was part of that, too) and truly earn his position as captain of the Enterprise by the end of the film. I have faith that Kirk will be more mature in the next film, especially since I do expect a romance with Carol Marcus is in the cards.
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Old July 21 2013, 10:12 PM   #17
The Wormhole
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

Lance wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
STID definitely did a better job with the main cast than XI did. There were a few scenes where Kirk and Spock actually reminded me of Shatner and Nimoy.
I'm afraid I do have to disagree with this. For me, Pine's portrayal in the 2009 movie was indisputably more Shatner-esque than what we got in STID, from the Kobyashi Maru sequence right through to the bits in the end of the movie where he had taken full control of the Enterprise, he reminded me far more of the (future) capable Starship commander from TOS in his STXI portrayal. By contrast, STID NuKirk felt to me like a step backwards, almost like his entire characterisation had been rewound back to that early bar fight scene from the first movie. I was disappointed with that aspect of STID.
What I was referring to specifically was the scene after the Enterprise takes off from Earth where Kirk and Spock are discussing happiness. In that scene Pine and Quinto play off each other in much the same way Shatner and Nimoy did, which I feel was missing from XI.

Yeoman Basha wrote: View Post
So yeah, the writers went overboard with the immature playboy stuff in the early part of STID, but it was all in the name of giving Kirk a character arc where he could grow up (having Kirk's surrogate father die was part of that, too) and truly earn his position as captain of the Enterprise by the end of the film. I have faith that Kirk will be more mature in the next film, especially since I do expect a romance with Carol Marcus is in the cards.
Like you said, they went overboard with it. A far more suitable way would be just to have Kirk violating the Prime Directive to rescue people who would have died. That would have been a better characterization of Kirk, someone willing to ignore the rules to do what he believes is right as opposed to the bad boy punk who doesn't believe rules should apply to him.
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Old July 22 2013, 06:03 AM   #18
Lance
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
STID definitely did a better job with the main cast than XI did. There were a few scenes where Kirk and Spock actually reminded me of Shatner and Nimoy.
I'm afraid I do have to disagree with this. For me, Pine's portrayal in the 2009 movie was indisputably more Shatner-esque than what we got in STID, from the Kobyashi Maru sequence right through to the bits in the end of the movie where he had taken full control of the Enterprise, he reminded me far more of the (future) capable Starship commander from TOS in his STXI portrayal. By contrast, STID NuKirk felt to me like a step backwards, almost like his entire characterisation had been rewound back to that early bar fight scene from the first movie. I was disappointed with that aspect of STID.
What I was referring to specifically was the scene after the Enterprise takes off from Earth where Kirk and Spock are discussing happiness. In that scene Pine and Quinto play off each other in much the same way Shatner and Nimoy did, which I feel was missing from XI.
Fair enough. I do agree actually, the character interplay is certainly stronger in STID.
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Old July 22 2013, 04:26 PM   #19
CommishSleer
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

Yeoman Basha wrote: View Post
At the beginning of STID, the writers definitely regressed Kirk's character because they wanted to give him the story arc of re-earning the captain's chair. The party line that I heard in several interviews was that Kirk got the captain's chair in the first film, but he truly earned it in the second film.

And to be fair, there was a lot of criticism after XI that Kirk had become captain too fast, so the writers were trying to address that. But IMO they laid it on too thick at the beginning of STID. Kirk starts the film by accidentally stunning his and McCoy's "ride" leading to the crazy jump off a cliff, and then we get Scotty chastising Kirk for putting the Enterprise at the bottom of the ocean. We also get a line from Sulu when the shuttle is failing, where he says something to the effect of, "I told the captain that the shuttle wouldn't be able to take this." Followed by Kirk's nonchalant, "So they saw us, big deal." Then of course the threesome with the Caitians, and it's also strongly implied that Kirk had a fling with Christine Chapel and dumped her.

So yeah, the writers went overboard with the immature playboy stuff in the early part of STID, but it was all in the name of giving Kirk a character arc where he could grow up (having Kirk's surrogate father die was part of that, too) and truly earn his position as captain of the Enterprise by the end of the film. I have faith that Kirk will be more mature in the next film, especially since I do expect a romance with Carol Marcus is in the cards.
I'm not sure he will have a romance with Marcus perhaps the twist will be that its McCoy and Marcus. But I think you have great points on Kirk heading towards maturity.

I don't have that much problem with Kirk having a 3-some or dating girls. I'm more concerned with the 'disrespect' he has for these girls. More problems with him leering at Marcus, saying 'hello Ladies', forgetting Chapel's name and I'm also condemning him for that deleted scene in ST09 where he mixes up Gaila and another Orion girl .
At the risk of sounding like a boring feminist you just don't see Kirk interacting with women much in a positive fashion.
It doesn't worry me that much though. I'm not invested in these 'one-night' stand girls but it makes me think less of Kirk's character. I wonder if there are fans of the movies that admire nuKirk's interaction with the ladies.
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Old July 22 2013, 10:03 PM   #20
serenitytrek1
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
alexianyc wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Other than Galia, has he "gotten" a babe in either film?
He's shown having a threesome with two Caitians.
Forgot about that. I must be getting old.
Apparently Kirk has screwed Nurse Chapel in this timeline.
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Old July 22 2013, 10:05 PM   #21
Yeoman Basha
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

The Wormhole wrote: View Post

Like you said, they went overboard with it. A far more suitable way would be just to have Kirk violating the Prime Directive to rescue people who would have died. That would have been a better characterization of Kirk, someone willing to ignore the rules to do what he believes is right as opposed to the bad boy punk who doesn't believe rules should apply to him.
Well, violating the Prime Directive is something that Kirk never outgrew. Kirk Prime was doing it all the time. So to give Kirk that coming-of-age story arc, his immaturity had to go beyond just breaking the Prime Directive.

But yes, we're in agreement that they went overboard with the immaturity angle in the early part of STID. I mean, Kirk hardly does anything right in the first third of the film.

Having said that, I'm very glad that the writers tried to give Kirk a strong story arc, and the whole coming-of-age angle was a good one for him. I also don't blame Pine at all, as I think he did a really great job with what he was given. It was just...the writers laid it on a bit too thick at the beginning.
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Old July 22 2013, 10:12 PM   #22
Yeoman Basha
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Yeoman Basha wrote: View Post
At the beginning of STID, the writers definitely regressed Kirk's character because they wanted to give him the story arc of re-earning the captain's chair. The party line that I heard in several interviews was that Kirk got the captain's chair in the first film, but he truly earned it in the second film.

And to be fair, there was a lot of criticism after XI that Kirk had become captain too fast, so the writers were trying to address that. But IMO they laid it on too thick at the beginning of STID. Kirk starts the film by accidentally stunning his and McCoy's "ride" leading to the crazy jump off a cliff, and then we get Scotty chastising Kirk for putting the Enterprise at the bottom of the ocean. We also get a line from Sulu when the shuttle is failing, where he says something to the effect of, "I told the captain that the shuttle wouldn't be able to take this." Followed by Kirk's nonchalant, "So they saw us, big deal." Then of course the threesome with the Caitians, and it's also strongly implied that Kirk had a fling with Christine Chapel and dumped her.

So yeah, the writers went overboard with the immature playboy stuff in the early part of STID, but it was all in the name of giving Kirk a character arc where he could grow up (having Kirk's surrogate father die was part of that, too) and truly earn his position as captain of the Enterprise by the end of the film. I have faith that Kirk will be more mature in the next film, especially since I do expect a romance with Carol Marcus is in the cards.
I'm not sure he will have a romance with Marcus perhaps the twist will be that its McCoy and Marcus. But I think you have great points on Kirk heading towards maturity.

I don't have that much problem with Kirk having a 3-some or dating girls. I'm more concerned with the 'disrespect' he has for these girls. More problems with him leering at Marcus, saying 'hello Ladies', forgetting Chapel's name and I'm also condemning him for that deleted scene in ST09 where he mixes up Gaila and another Orion girl .
At the risk of sounding like a boring feminist you just don't see Kirk interacting with women much in a positive fashion.
It doesn't worry me that much though. I'm not invested in these 'one-night' stand girls but it makes me think less of Kirk's character. I wonder if there are fans of the movies that admire nuKirk's interaction with the ladies.
Well, my crystal ball is broken, and predictions are made to be wrong -- but I don't think there is any chance whatsoever we'll see a McCoy-Marcus romance in the next film. The sequel will have Kirk-Marcus, nuDavid will be spawned, and McCoy will be lucky to get anything more than a small supporting part. And I say this as someone who loves McCoy and Karl Urban.

As far as the Gaila subplot in XI, the whole reason that was deleted in the first place was because it made Kirk too unlikable. That's why it was cut. So as far as I'm concerned, it never happened.

Through XI and the early part of STID, the writers wanted to show us that Kirk was a playboy. Mission accomplished. The point was hammered home with a sledgehammer. I think they know it's time to move on already, and I am convinced we will see a more mature Kirk in the next film.
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Old July 22 2013, 11:43 PM   #23
Hugh Mann
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

There isn't any of the spirit of the old characters. Abrams' characters are two-dimensional, thinly-veiled caricatures of the original crew, at best. McCoy does nothing of value, ever, and every time Karl Urban utters a one-liner it is painfully evident the scriptwriters are trying to make him a grouchy old man without ever having watched Kelly DeForest. Kirk is an idiot with no redeeming features and who should be in a mental institution because his sociopathic idiocy makes him a danger to everyone else around him. Unlike the original who even at his worst wasn't completely brainless. Spock, always the most interesting of the original crew, completely lacks the subtlety and nuance of Leonard Nimoy's, as if the writers simply decided that making him speak awkwardly was enough to give him depth (and judging from the posts on this forum, most people appear to mistake that for actual characterization). The rest of the characters are all the same.

It's difficult to tell whether the actors are genuinely awful and incapable, or whether they are simply doing the best they can with shitty scriptwriting and directing. I lean towards the latter, personally.
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Old July 22 2013, 11:49 PM   #24
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

Hugh Mann wrote: View Post
There isn't any of the spirit of the old characters. Abrams' characters are two-dimensional, thinly-veiled caricatures of the original crew, at best. McCoy does nothing of value, ever, and every time Karl Urban utters a one-liner it is painfully evident the scriptwriters are trying to make him a grouchy old man without ever having watched Kelly DeForest.
I find them appropriate for the ages that are being shown. Been watching TOS since 1975. McCoy did nothing but save Kirk.

And it's DeForest Kelley.
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Old July 23 2013, 06:06 AM   #25
Nerys Myk
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

BillJ wrote: View Post
Hugh Mann wrote: View Post
There isn't any of the spirit of the old characters. Abrams' characters are two-dimensional, thinly-veiled caricatures of the original crew, at best. McCoy does nothing of value, ever, and every time Karl Urban utters a one-liner it is painfully evident the scriptwriters are trying to make him a grouchy old man without ever having watched Kelly DeForest.
I find them appropriate for the ages that are being shown. Been watching TOS since 1975. McCoy did nothing but save Kirk.

And it's DeForest Kelley.
It's hilarious when "experts" can't even get the basics right.
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Old July 23 2013, 06:13 AM   #26
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

Hugh Mann wrote: View Post
There isn't any of the spirit of the old characters. Abrams' characters are two-dimensional, thinly-veiled caricatures of the original crew, at best. McCoy does nothing of value, ever, and every time Karl Urban utters a one-liner it is painfully evident the scriptwriters are trying to make him a grouchy old man without ever having watched Kelly DeForest. Kirk is an idiot with no redeeming features and who should be in a mental institution because his sociopathic idiocy makes him a danger to everyone else around him. Unlike the original who even at his worst wasn't completely brainless. Spock, always the most interesting of the original crew, completely lacks the subtlety and nuance of Leonard Nimoy's, as if the writers simply decided that making him speak awkwardly was enough to give him depth (and judging from the posts on this forum, most people appear to mistake that for actual characterization). The rest of the characters are all the same.

It's difficult to tell whether the actors are genuinely awful and incapable, or whether they are simply doing the best they can with shitty scriptwriting and directing. I lean towards the latter, personally.
You know what pisses me off? When J.J. completely glosses over the time Kirk, from TOS, shot womp-rats in his T16. Kind of a "way to forget the rich lore, you hip and edgy bespectacled son-of-a-bitch," you know?
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Old July 23 2013, 03:02 PM   #27
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

Lance wrote: View Post
By contrast, STID NuKirk felt to me like a step backwards, almost like his entire characterisation had been rewound back to that early bar fight scene from the first movie. I was disappointed with that aspect of STID.
To me (and this may just be the way I watched it) that was the point, Kirk is a natural leader who saved Earth and won the centre seat on Starfleets newest ship through bravado, out of the box thinking and a whole heap of luck.

The start of STID shows that while hes grown in his command hes gotten used to taking risks and them working out, looses his ship and shows he is the same guy from the bar fight as pointed out by Pike.

By the end of the movie he has lost his surrogate father along with watching a number of people die and almost gave into his desire for revenge, lost a number of people under his command, almost had his ship destroyed and then died saving it. For me the turning point is when he genuinely turns to his crew and says "Im sorry..." when he realises what he has done will likely get them all killed.

Hopefully the new writers will now show him as the Captain the Enterprise deserves now he has come from darkness and earnt his chair.
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Old July 28 2013, 09:44 PM   #28
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I think they're excellent modernized, moviefied versions of the TOS characters. The biggest difference is that they see each other as friends first and officers second.

Kirk is based more on the classic movie Kirk than the (to be honest, rather generic and occasionally unpleasently grabby) TV series version.

Spock has probably changed the most of the main cast, although after what he's lived through it's not surprising. He's snarky and a little unstable.

McCoy is McCoy, but they're feeding him better in this timeline.

There's a lot more to Uhura. Like the "Mr. Adventure" scene from STIII expanded into a whole person. No more "I'm frightened, captain" and screaming. And she can speak Klingon.

Scotty has a bit of a chip on his shoulder now, and due perhaps to the Temporal Cold War has less hair than his older self.

Sulu's speech in ID was the coolest thing the character ever did. Less goofy than TOS Sulu, although we haven't seen enough of him to really say.

Chekov is the same as ever, but a little more humble and perhaps a little smarter - but like Sulu, we haven't seen enough to be certain.

Khan and Carol seem the most different to me, but the both were seen in a totally different situations than before. TOS Khan would probably do the same as ID Khan if put into the same situation. Carol seemed wide-eyed and innocent in ID but world weary in WoK. Such things come with age, I guess...
I agree with your staeement, except I wouldn't see them as "excellent". Nu-Kirk is a jerk. Other than that, you're spot-on!
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Old August 3 2013, 09:58 PM   #29
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

LilyThompson wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I think they're excellent modernized, moviefied versions of the TOS characters. The biggest difference is that they see each other as friends first and officers second.

Kirk is based more on the classic movie Kirk than the (to be honest, rather generic and occasionally unpleasently grabby) TV series version.

Spock has probably changed the most of the main cast, although after what he's lived through it's not surprising. He's snarky and a little unstable.

McCoy is McCoy, but they're feeding him better in this timeline.

There's a lot more to Uhura. Like the "Mr. Adventure" scene from STIII expanded into a whole person. No more "I'm frightened, captain" and screaming. And she can speak Klingon.

Scotty has a bit of a chip on his shoulder now, and due perhaps to the Temporal Cold War has less hair than his older self.

Sulu's speech in ID was the coolest thing the character ever did. Less goofy than TOS Sulu, although we haven't seen enough of him to really say.

Chekov is the same as ever, but a little more humble and perhaps a little smarter - but like Sulu, we haven't seen enough to be certain.

Khan and Carol seem the most different to me, but the both were seen in a totally different situations than before. TOS Khan would probably do the same as ID Khan if put into the same situation. Carol seemed wide-eyed and innocent in ID but world weary in WoK. Such things come with age, I guess...
I agree with your statement, except I wouldn't see them as "excellent". Nu-Kirk is a jerk. Other than that, you're spot-on!
Kirk, a jerk? No more than the past version could be at times.

Last edited by Shaka Zulu; August 3 2013 at 10:02 PM. Reason: Thinking better of what I said
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Old August 4 2013, 12:55 AM   #30
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Re: Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

True

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