RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,760
Posts: 5,216,509
Members: 24,217
Currently online: 858
Newest member: Vger23

TrekToday headlines

Q Meets NuTrek Crew
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

Pine In Talks For Drama
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

New X-Men: Days of Future Past Trailer
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Nimoy to Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone Comic
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

These Are The Voyages TOS Season Two Book Review
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

Kirk’s Well Wishes To Kirk
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Quinto In New Starz Series
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Star Trek: Horizon Film
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14

Star Trek: Fleet Captains Game Expansion
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old August 15 2013, 02:41 PM   #76
mb22
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

I'm just annoyed that the author seems to have seen fit to lift at least some of them from startrekhistory.com with neither permission nor attribution.
Almost all the photographs bear the caption "Courtesy of Gurian". Was Gurian the one who scanned those photos?

Last edited by T'Bonz; January 13 2014 at 11:59 PM.
mb22 is offline  
Old August 15 2013, 09:39 PM   #77
Harvey
Admiral
 
Harvey's Avatar
 
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

In many cases, the photos attributed to him were pilfered from other sources, including Star Trek History, without getting permission (or, it seems, acknowledging their work restoring the photos in the first place).
__________________
"This begs explanation." - de Forest Research on Star Trek

My blog: Star Trek Fact Check.

Last edited by T'Bonz; February 16 2014 at 04:27 AM.
Harvey is offline  
Old August 15 2013, 11:26 PM   #78
Sir Rhosis
Commodore
 
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

^^^A shame. A crying fucking shame! I'm torn rather to buy a copy, and feel that I'm supporting theft, or to forego it.

Sir Rhosis

EDIT: Fuck 'em. No bucks from me. I'll go to a couple more Reds games.
Sir Rhosis is offline  
Old August 16 2013, 12:26 AM   #79
GSchnitzer
Co-Executive Producer
 
GSchnitzer's Avatar
 
Location: Gaithersburg, Maryland, USA, Terra
Send a message via AIM to GSchnitzer Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to GSchnitzer Send a message via Yahoo to GSchnitzer
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

I think Gurian’s contention (in going through his Facebook page) is that the original film trims were cut up and sold by Lincoln Enterprises to lots of people. StarTrekHistory just got one frame of the film trim, and he has, like, the very next frame. So of course they’ll look the same! (I don’t think there are actually any clips in this book that weren't simply harvested from StarTrekHistory or from the "birdofthegalaxy" Flickr page without permission or even attribution.)

It’s too bad, too: the clips that StarTrekHistory possesses actually exist in far higher definition than are made available on-line. If anyone had thought to go right to the horse’s mouth instead of through Gurian, the pictures could have been obtained and reproduced in greater resolution.

The pictures at StarTrekHistory employ a floating and moving watermark. By capturing multiple screen grabs at different points during the floating cycle, it was possible to stitch the images together in Frankensteinian fashion to create a single image without the offending watermark.

What a shame. There ought to be a law.

Someone should scan the entire book and post it online.
__________________
Greg Schnitzer
Co-Executive Producer
Star Trek Phase II
http://www.startrekphase2.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3348883/
GSchnitzer is offline  
Old August 16 2013, 01:25 AM   #80
SpHeRe31459
Commander
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

My enthusiasm for this book has been severely dampened by the fact the author poached photos online. What does the publisher say about this? ultimately that would be their responsibility for clearances and liability, right?
SpHeRe31459 is offline  
Old August 16 2013, 03:34 AM   #81
plynch
Commodore
 
plynch's Avatar
 
Location: Outer Graceland
View plynch's Twitter Profile
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Copyright is thorny and gray. I learned a lot doing a book with many quotes to make money (as opposed to research in academia). I used only public domain photos and licensed my cover photo from a rights management firm so hopefully the widow of the photog gets a couple bucks. "The worker deserves her wages."

As for this Trek book:

Someone wondered about the publisher. Almost always the author retains copyright and is also liable for any infringement issues. Publishers are bare bones nowadays. You must show your publisher that you have gotten permission or secured the rights to items you're using. Quotes if not lengthy are ok in nonfiction to enlighten the public, but photos (except in journalism/criticism) must be licensed, or borrowed with permission. Song lyrics are never quoted without permission.

I by no means condone what the author did if he ripped the images off of TrekHistory. I wonder: Who owns the copyrights on those images? The corporation that now owns televised Trek? They were discarded (there are court cases about forfeiting ownership rights when discarding something); and never published. Copyright protection begins from the date first made accessible to the public. My hunch is that TrekHistory is in no position to do anything legally (IF indeed the author took those images as people think).

This is why there are copyright attorneys.
__________________
Author of Live Like Louis! Inspirational Stories from the Life of Louis Armstrong, http://livelikelouis.com
plynch is offline  
Old August 16 2013, 05:57 AM   #82
Maurice
Vice Admiral
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Location: Maurice in San Francisco
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Just FYI I spoke to an entertainment lawyer I work with who started in the film business and he says that basically CBS owns the images. HOWEVER, even if the images were Public Domain, if you do something substantial to alter it, then your specific alternation (a "transformative" work) is copyrightable though the original remains PD. In the case of photo restoration, it is not a transformative work, but can be considered "added work" and, likewise, not free for someone to use just because they want to. For instance, Plan 9 From Outer Space may be in the public domain, but if a company colorizes is their version is added work and cannot be copied or used without permission.

He told me the legal options, but I don't think those should be aired here.
__________________
* * *
“The absence of limitations is the enemy of art.”
― Orson Welles
Maurice is offline  
Old August 16 2013, 12:47 PM   #83
plynch
Commodore
 
plynch's Avatar
 
Location: Outer Graceland
View plynch's Twitter Profile
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

I was wondering about the transformative issue, but I didn't think simply restoring a clip would transform it. This mattered with my book: since I was taking quotes from previous works but stitching them into something new, it is ok.

This transformative angle came up in a case involving t-shirts of the Three Stooges and their own publicity rights: the right to make money from one's own visage. The shirts simply had pictures of them that hadn't really been altered; unlike, say, Warhol's art of Marilyn. (Or my AWESOME Warhol-esque Spock shirt, referenced in my book!) I'm sure the lawyers would enjoy arguing whether color-restoring pictures you didn't have the right to, constitutes artistic transformation. And of course, it depends what judge you draw.

Let me restate that if the authors did what some people think/claim, I still think that's dirty pool, and an ODD shortcut considering how many ridiculous hours of research they must have put in on the text. From the sound of it, there are only these trims and publicity stills illustrating the book? So they didn't want to license images from the episodes from whatever corporation owns them? Anyone contact the authors yet? (I'm not a buyer, nor will I be.)
__________________
Author of Live Like Louis! Inspirational Stories from the Life of Louis Armstrong, http://livelikelouis.com
plynch is offline  
Old August 16 2013, 01:38 PM   #84
Forbin
Admiral
 
Forbin's Avatar
 
Location: I said out, dammit!
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Well, I'm enjoying the hell out of the book. How 'bout if I just don't look at the pictures?
Forbin is offline  
Old August 16 2013, 03:48 PM   #85
mb22
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

On a lighter note, re typos, the citations at the end mispell author Jeff Bond as "Jeff Bong" at least twice.
mb22 is offline  
Old August 16 2013, 03:55 PM   #86
trevanian
Rear Admiral
 
trevanian's Avatar
 
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Well at least now we don't have to ask what those guys must have been smoking ...
trevanian is offline  
Old August 16 2013, 04:04 PM   #87
trevanian
Rear Admiral
 
trevanian's Avatar
 
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

plynch wrote: View Post
I was wondering about the transformative issue, but I didn't think simply restoring a clip would transform it. This mattered with my book: since I was taking quotes from previous works but stitching them into something new, it is ok.
that's something I wondered about with those James Van Hise 'books' on Trek, where he grabs a chunk from CFQ here, followed by a chunk from CINEFEX there, and some AMERICAN CINEMATOGRAPHER, sometimes using quotes, often summarizing author's text. I remember on the title page there was some declaration about the nature of the book that presumably protected it against charges of copyright infringement, but I couldn't figure out how that worked.

Van Hise grabbed stuff that was very author-specific ... for example, from the TUC Cinefex, he pretty much reprinted my own line about Chang's eyepiece being only parted bolted in where I (in maybe the only instance I ever managed to do this and have it survive into print) managed to get a 'funny' into the magazine) say the effect is a klingon with a screw loose. That's not what any of the interviewees told me, so it isn't a part of TREK history, just an author's observation, which seems like it should be more sacrosanct.

Ditto for this godawful STAR WARS history book called EMPIRE BUILDING from some entity called carol press (I think that is what it was called, I tore it in thirds and threw it away long ago.)
They'd take stuff out of context, introduce errors, and still basically just be retyping other folks' work for chapters on end.

I used to flag these for the magazine when I worked there and came across them, but I think all they ever did was send 'cease & desist' letters with no weight behind them.

Maybe everybody thinks this is just like music sampling (another thing that has puzzled me for ... well, for decades now), but again I don't think that makes it right by any means.
trevanian is offline  
Old August 16 2013, 05:06 PM   #88
alchemist
Commander
 
alchemist's Avatar
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Thanks very much for the support -- it's appreciated and we're humbled by it.

The above posts nail the situation on the head, and I don't have much more to add. I do want to say though that after we saw our images on their Facebook page -- but before the first book was sent to the printer -- we exchanged emails with the publisher and alerted him. Stepwise, he went through a series of arguments with us (our comments to his arguments are in parentheses in the below):

1. There were a lot of film trims so no doubt other individuals have the same or similar ones. (We told him that our digital fingerprints from the restoration process are on the pictures on their Facebook page and we could recognize them.)

2. We got the majority of the pictures from Gurian so your beef is with him, if there is one. (This is "insulation.")

3. These types of pictures are in the public domain and they may be used freely. (Really? Freely? Every picture on our site that I've contributed has come from a film trim or photo that I've purchased, some for $$ each. Additionally, our site clearly states that we own the digital restorations of the trim images, in exchange for the many hours scanning and retouching them to remove scratches, blemishes, etc.)

At this point in the dialogue, he told us he would contact Gurian and see if any of the pictures came from others. If so, he would remove them. I volunteered to assist him with the identification effort, and, at that point, he stopped communicating. And our pictures (and the pictures from birdofthegalaxy) continue to be posted on their Facebook page.

Needless to say, we're pretty unhappy with all of this. I guess no good deed goes unpunished, as the saying goes.

Thanks again.
__________________
www.startrekhistory.com

Last edited by T'Bonz; January 13 2014 at 11:59 PM.
alchemist is offline  
Old August 16 2013, 05:27 PM   #89
BillJ
Admiral
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

alchemist wrote: View Post
Needless to say, we're pretty unhappy with all of this. I guess no good deed goes unpunished, as the saying goes.
As much as I'd like to pick these up, I'll steer clear if that's the way they are handling the situation.

I'm sure I'll be able to find used copies or copies at the library somewhere down the road.
__________________
I'm not popular enough to be different! - Homer Simpson
BillJ is offline  
Old August 16 2013, 05:46 PM   #90
Maurice
Vice Admiral
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Location: Maurice in San Francisco
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Yeah, basically, the guys are dirt if they're doing this crap, and I'm going to tell every friend of mine who might buy these books to NOT to.
__________________
* * *
“The absence of limitations is the enemy of art.”
― Orson Welles
Maurice is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Tags
book, tos

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:09 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.