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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old December 18 2013, 11:15 PM   #781
Harvey
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

I've been meaning to ask one thing. The first edition erroneously claimed that Bruce Hyde appeared in 'The Man Trap,' which I pretty quickly debunked. Did Cushman revise this claim in the second edition or, like his 'Alternative Factor' claim (which I was also critical of) stick with it?
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Old December 19 2013, 11:22 AM   #782
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Harvey wrote: View Post
I've been meaning to ask one thing. The first edition erroneously claimed that Bruce Hyde appeared in 'The Man Trap,' which I pretty quickly debunked. Did Cushman revise this claim in the second edition or, like his 'Alternative Factor' claim (which I was also critical of) stick with it?
It is interesting. The passage reads as if he has some background information. He mentions the scene has been shot during The Naked Time's shooting week as a "pick-up", which is an extreme feat of speculation if all he has to go by is that he "recognizes" Bruce Hyde in the episode. Even if it had been Hyde and not Albright, that doesn't lead naturally to the fact that it was filmed as a pick-up.

It seems likely that some scene for The Man Trap was filmed during The Naked Time, but that this one is not it.
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Old December 19 2013, 12:05 PM   #783
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Myko wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post
I've been meaning to ask one thing. The first edition erroneously claimed that Bruce Hyde appeared in 'The Man Trap,' which I pretty quickly debunked. Did Cushman revise this claim in the second edition or, like his 'Alternative Factor' claim (which I was also critical of) stick with it?
It is interesting. The passage reads as if he has some background information. He mentions the scene has been shot during The Naked Time's shooting week as a "pick-up", which is an extreme feat of speculation if all he has to go by is that he "recognizes" Bruce Hyde in the episode. Even if it had been Hyde and not Albright, that doesn't lead naturally to the fact that it was filmed as a pick-up.

It seems likely that some scene for The Man Trap was filmed during The Naked Time, but that this one is not it.
Based on what evidence?

Information given about the scene has already shown to be wrong, and speculation about why someone wrote what they did doesn't constitute evidence.

If such a scene exists, what is it?
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Old December 19 2013, 12:16 PM   #784
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

I don't know what the scene is, and neither does Cushman by the looks of it.

My point was that this sequence of events:

1) Cushman sees Budd Albright in "The Man Trap", thinks it's Bruce Hyde
2) Cushman infers that a pick-up scene was filmed during "The Naked Time".

Is more unlikely than:

1) Cushman reads a source saying pick-up scene for "The Naked Time" was filmed during "The Man Trap".
2) Cushman sees Budd Albright in "The Man Trap", thinks it's Bruce Hyde and concludes this was the scene in question.

I'm not suggesting this is evidence for anything, but Occam's Razor and all that. Cushman would have to provide that source or admit to making it up.
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Old December 19 2013, 01:03 PM   #785
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Myko wrote: View Post
I'm not suggesting this is evidence for anything, but Occam's Razor and all that.
So, you're not suggesting that we drink, but here's our Kool-Aid? Good grief!
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Old December 19 2013, 02:24 PM   #786
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

I don't follow your reaction or understand your question really.

I'm just speculating on why those lines are in the book.
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Old December 19 2013, 03:54 PM   #787
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Myko wrote: View Post
I don't follow your reaction or understand your question really.

I'm just speculating on why those lines are in the book.
Well, you also said that you think that the scene exists, despite also saying that the one in question is probably not it, and despite having no idea what it is. In implying what you think is probably true by alluding to Occam's Razor, you did more than merely speculate.

The purpose of Occam's Razor is to assign weight, as to which explanation among alternatives is in fact more likely, so it's more than a little disingenuous to say that you aren't offering evidence, while at the same time saying however that Occam's Razor would say thus-and-so. Ttrying to have it both ways was the problem I had with what you were saying.

Moreover, based on what you said, I don't see any reason whatsoever to suppose that the scene exists. Occam's Razor applied in that instance doesn't yield the result you suggest, since your list of simpler possible explanations for the error (which certainly exists, at least in the name of the actor) isn't complete.

The only thing that would make me believe that such a scene exists is actually naming it (and citing evidence).
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Old December 19 2013, 04:58 PM   #788
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Coach Comet wrote: View Post
Well, you also said that you think that the scene exists, despite also saying that the one in question is probably not it, and despite having no idea what it is. In implying what you think is probably true by alluding to Occam's Razor, you did more than merely speculate.
All right, I see what you're saying. I was offering the presence of the passage in the book as evidence for such a scene existing. I was a bit sloppy with my words there, attribute it to the fact that evidence and proof is the same word in Swedish if you want.

Coach Comet wrote: View Post
Moreover, based on what you said, I don't see any reason whatsoever to suppose that the scene exists. Occam's Razor applied in that instance doesn't yield the result you suggest, since your list of simpler possible explanations for the error [...] isn't complete.
Feel free to offer more.
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Old December 19 2013, 05:23 PM   #789
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Myko wrote: View Post
All right, I see what you're saying. I was offering the presence of the passage in the book as evidence for such a scene existing.
Precisely.
Coach Comet wrote: View Post
Moreover, based on what you said, I don't see any reason whatsoever to suppose that the scene exists. Occam's Razor applied in that instance doesn't yield the result you suggest, since your list of simpler possible explanations for the error [...] isn't complete.
Feel free to offer more.
I decline, as it would serve no constructive purpose. (Yes, I knew I might be asked, when I said that.) Especially in a thread such as this, when there has already been heated contention of the facts, there is no need for pure speculation in the service of what amounts to only an academic issue.

I believe that the best remedy is simply for the author to correct all uncovered mistakes in future editions. The author himself can choose to offer explanations for why they occurred, as he sees appropriate.
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Old December 19 2013, 05:30 PM   #790
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Myko wrote: View Post
1) Cushman reads a source saying pick-up scene for "The Naked Time" was filmed during "The Man Trap".
2) Cushman sees Budd Albright in "The Man Trap", thinks it's Bruce Hyde and concludes this was the scene in question.
This is probably what happened. Take a look at this shot in 'The Naked Time' and this shot in 'The Man Trap.'

I'd have to check the archival records to be sure, but it's not hard to believe that NBC wanted a short expository scene with the bridge dropped in at the beginning of 'The Man Trap' when it was decided to broadcast it first.

Lazy fucking work on Cushman's part, though. And, unless someone said, I'll repeat my question -- does he double down on this claim in the revised and expanded edition?
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Old December 19 2013, 05:39 PM   #791
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Harvey wrote: View Post
Myko wrote: View Post
1) Cushman reads a source saying pick-up scene for "The Naked Time" was filmed during "The Man Trap".
2) Cushman sees Budd Albright in "The Man Trap", thinks it's Bruce Hyde and concludes this was the scene in question.
This is probably what happened. Take a look at this shot in 'The Naked Time' and this shot in 'The Man Trap.'
I'm convinced. Thank you!

Seeing those pictures makes all the difference.
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Old December 19 2013, 07:21 PM   #792
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Yes of course, it's almost too obvious. Shame on Cushman for not catching that.
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Old December 19 2013, 07:59 PM   #793
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

To be fair to Cushman, this is what he writes (on p.173 of the first edition):

Day 2, Thursday. The first full day of production was also spent on the bridge, with the camera rolling between 8 a.m. and 6:50 p.m. Daniels was one-quarter day behind when he took his last shot. Two scenes had been postponed and would be filmed during production of the next episode -- "The Naked Time." One was the brief shot in the teaser, of Spock in the command chair and the unusual placement of Lt. Uhura and Lt. Leslie at the helm -- the plot for "The Naked Time" explaining why. With the addition of the Captain's log entry that opens the episode -- not in the shooting script, but written and recorded later -- Roddenberry felt the audience needed to see Spock on the bridge when Kirk refers to him. He was right. The second scene -- Kirk's first visit to the bridge in this episode -- features Bruce Hyde (as Lt. Kevin Riley) at the helm, a character introduced in the next episode.
So, Cushman correctly identifies the shots with Spock, Uhura, and Leslie on the bridge that were taken during production of "The Naked Time."

Given the fact that the scene wasn't in the shooting script, I wonder if it was really "postponed?" It makes more sense to me that it was only decided to do that pick-up later (or, alternatively, those were just alternate takes from "The Naked Time" dropped into the edit of "The Man Trap" to make it work, and not episode-specific pick-ups). But, that's just speculation at this point.
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Old December 19 2013, 08:48 PM   #794
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Thank you, that makes the situation clearer. And with what Harvey has now posted, I feel freer to state a more probable explanation for the misunderstanding than the two Myko presented: At least some of the issues are a result of our own misunderstanding! And that's a misunderstanding that I'll admit to being a part of. The scene thought to be with Hyde wasn't the reason for concluding that pick-ups for TMT were shot during TNT.
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Old December 19 2013, 09:15 PM   #795
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

I think this whole issue again points to the real problem with this book which is that the way it's written it's difficult to separate documented facts from Cushman's suppositions or extrapolations.
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