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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old December 6 2013, 07:56 PM   #751
Shaka Zulu
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

mb22 wrote: View Post
I'm just annoyed that the author seems to have seen fit to lift at least some of them from startrekhistory.com with neither permission nor attribution.
Almost all the photographs bear the caption "Courtesy of Gurian". Was Gurian the one who scanned those photos?
Harvey wrote: View Post
Gurian runs the Star Trek Prop Authority website. In many cases, the photos attributed to him were pilfered from other sources, including Star Trek History, without getting permission (or, it seems, acknowledging their work restoring the photos in the first place).
Sir Rhosis wrote: View Post
^^^A shame. A crying fucking shame! I'm torn rather to buy a copy, and feel that I'm supporting theft, or to forego it.

Sir Rhosis

EDIT: Fuck 'em. No bucks from me. I'll go to a couple more Reds games.
GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
I think Gurian’s contention (in going through his Facebook page) is that the original film trims were cut up and sold by Lincoln Enterprises to lots of people. StarTrekHistory just got one frame of the film trim, and he has, like, the very next frame. So of course they’ll look the same! (I don’t think there are actually any clips in this book that weren't simply harvested from StarTrekHistory or from the "birdofthegalaxy" Flickr page without permission or even attribution.)

It’s too bad, too: the clips that StarTrekHistory possesses actually exist in far higher definition than are made available on-line. If anyone had thought to go right to the horse’s mouth instead of through Gurian, the pictures could have been obtained and reproduced in greater resolution.

The pictures at StarTrekHistory employ a floating and moving watermark. By capturing multiple screen grabs at different points during the floating cycle, it was possible to stitch the images together in Frankensteinian fashion to create a single image without the offending watermark.

What a shame. There ought to be a law.

Someone should scan the entire book and post it online.
SpHeRe31459 wrote: View Post
My enthusiasm for this book has been severely dampened by the fact the author poached photos online. What does the publisher say about this? ultimately that would be their responsibility for clearances and liability, right?
plynch wrote: View Post
Copyright is thorny and gray. I learned a lot doing a book with many quotes to make money (as opposed to research in academia). I used only public domain photos and licensed my cover photo from a rights management firm so hopefully the widow of the photog gets a couple bucks. "The worker deserves her wages."

As for this Trek book:

Someone wondered about the publisher. Almost always the author retains copyright and is also liable for any infringement issues. Publishers are bare bones nowadays. You must show your publisher that you have gotten permission or secured the rights to items you're using. Quotes if not lengthy are ok in nonfiction to enlighten the public, but photos (except in journalism/criticism) must be licensed, or borrowed with permission. Song lyrics are never quoted without permission.

I by no means condone what the author did if he ripped the images off of TrekHistory. I wonder: Who owns the copyrights on those images? The corporation that now owns televised Trek? They were discarded (there are court cases about forfeiting ownership rights when discarding something); and never published. Copyright protection begins from the date first made accessible to the public. My hunch is that TrekHistory is in no position to do anything legally (IF indeed the author took those images as people think).

This is why there are copyright attorneys.
plynch wrote: View Post
I was wondering about the transformative issue, but I didn't think simply restoring a clip would transform it. This mattered with my book: since I was taking quotes from previous works but stitching them into something new, it is ok.

This transformative angle came up in a case involving t-shirts of the Three Stooges and their own publicity rights: the right to make money from one's own visage. The shirts simply had pictures of them that hadn't really been altered; unlike, say, Warhol's art of Marilyn. (Or my AWESOME Warhol-esque Spock shirt, referenced in my book!) I'm sure the lawyers would enjoy arguing whether color-restoring pictures you didn't have the right to, constitutes artistic transformation. And of course, it depends what judge you draw.

Let me restate that if the authors did what some people think/claim, I still think that's dirty pool, and an ODD shortcut considering how many ridiculous hours of research they must have put in on the text. From the sound of it, there are only these trims and publicity stills illustrating the book? So they didn't want to license images from the episodes from whatever corporation owns them? Anyone contact the authors yet? (I'm not a buyer, nor will I be.)
trevanian wrote: View Post
plynch wrote: View Post
I was wondering about the transformative issue, but I didn't think simply restoring a clip would transform it. This mattered with my book: since I was taking quotes from previous works but stitching them into something new, it is ok.
that's something I wondered about with those James Van Hise 'books' on Trek, where he grabs a chunk from CFQ here, followed by a chunk from CINEFEX there, and some AMERICAN CINEMATOGRAPHER, sometimes using quotes, often summarizing author's text. I remember on the title page there was some declaration about the nature of the book that presumably protected it against charges of copyright infringement, but I couldn't figure out how that worked.

Van Hise grabbed stuff that was very author-specific ... for example, from the TUC Cinefex, he pretty much reprinted my own line about Chang's eyepiece being only parted bolted in where I (in maybe the only instance I ever managed to do this and have it survive into print) managed to get a 'funny' into the magazine) say the effect is a klingon with a screw loose. That's not what any of the interviewees told me, so it isn't a part of TREK history, just an author's observation, which seems like it should be more sacrosanct.

Ditto for this godawful STAR WARS history book called EMPIRE BUILDING from some entity called carol press (I think that is what it was called, I tore it in thirds and threw it away long ago.)
They'd take stuff out of context, introduce errors, and still basically just be retyping other folks' work for chapters on end.

I used to flag these for the magazine when I worked there and came across them, but I think all they ever did was send 'cease & desist' letters with no weight behind them.

Maybe everybody thinks this is just like music sampling (another thing that has puzzled me for ... well, for decades now), but again I don't think that makes it right by any means.
alchemist wrote: View Post
Thanks very much for the support -- it's appreciated and we're humbled by it.

The above posts nail the situation on the head, and I don't have much more to add. I do want to say though that after we saw our images on their Facebook page -- but before the first book was sent to the printer -- we exchanged emails with the publisher and alerted him. Stepwise, he went through a series of arguments with us (our comments to his arguments are in parentheses in the below):

1. There were a lot of film trims so no doubt other individuals have the same or similar ones. (We told him that our digital fingerprints from the restoration process are on the pictures on their Facebook page and we could recognize them.)

2. We got the majority of the pictures from Gurian so your beef is with him, if there is one. (This is "insulation.")

3. These types of pictures are in the public domain and they may be used freely. (Really? Freely? Every picture on our site that I've contributed has come from a film trim or photo that I've purchased, some for $$ each. Additionally, our site clearly states that we own the digital restorations of the trim images, in exchange for the many hours scanning and retouching them to remove scratches, blemishes, etc.)

At this point in the dialogue, he told us he would contact Gurian and see if any of the pictures came from others. If so, he would remove them. I volunteered to assist him with the identification effort, and, at that point, he stopped communicating. And our pictures (and the pictures from birdofthegalaxy) continue to be posted on their Facebook page.

Needless to say, we're pretty unhappy with all of this. I guess no good deed goes unpunished, as the saying goes.

Thanks again.
BillJ wrote: View Post
alchemist wrote: View Post
Needless to say, we're pretty unhappy with all of this. I guess no good deed goes unpunished, as the saying goes.
As much as I'd like to pick these up, I'll steer clear if that's the way they are handling the situation.

I'm sure I'll be able to find used copies or copies at the library somewhere down the road.
Maurice wrote: View Post
Yeah, basically, the guys are dirt if they're doing this crap, and I'm going to tell every friend of mine who might buy these books to NOT to.
Based on what I've just read, I too won't be buying or supporting this, and I've also just rescinded my previous comment supporting this book.

Last edited by T'Bonz; January 13 2014 at 11:58 PM.
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Old December 6 2013, 08:09 PM   #752
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Nice to read that, especially in the context of the other remarks.

Proves Ellison is right yet again ... "everybody is entitled to their INFORMED opinion."
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Old December 6 2013, 08:40 PM   #753
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

I can tell you right now that I have already cost the author at least a dozen sales over this issue, and I will continue to spread the word.

If they were to remove the contested images from future printings and don't use such images in subsequent volumes, I will then encourage people to buy the book, despite its flaws. But until then I will not assist them on capitalizing on the hard work of others without permission or recompense.
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Old December 6 2013, 08:50 PM   #754
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

It's statements like these that are encouraging my purchase of the book.

It's one thing to make a personal stand and decide not to purchase the book because of something that you believe is wrong. That's your right and I fully support it.

What I don't agree with is making it your personal mission to undermine the sale of this book because of your beliefs, even though they have no legal standing or at least the parties involved aren't interested in stopping the sale of the book because of it.
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Old December 6 2013, 08:56 PM   #755
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

trekker670 wrote: View Post
It's statements like these that are encouraging my purchase of the book.

It's one thing to make a personal stand and decide not to purchase the book because of something that you believe is wrong. That's your right and I fully support it.

What I don't agree with is making it your personal mission to undermine the sale of this book because of your beliefs, even though they have no legal standing or at least the parties involved aren't interested in stopping the sale of the book because of it.
Wrong is wrong.

If someone asked me about the book I would discourage them purchasing it based on the actions of the publisher/author.
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Old December 6 2013, 09:09 PM   #756
trevanian
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

trekker670 wrote: View Post
It's statements like these that are encouraging my purchase of the book.

It's one thing to make a personal stand and decide not to purchase the book because of something that you believe is wrong. That's your right and I fully support it.

What I don't agree with is making it your personal mission to undermine the sale of this book because of your beliefs, even though they have no legal standing or at least the parties involved aren't interested in stopping the sale of the book because of it.
As was said, everyone is entitled to their INFORMED opinion.

What you do with that information is your call, but by having the benefit of someone presenting more information, a service is being provided - don't mistake it for a crusade being launched (though I'd've been okay with that too on this issue.)
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Old December 7 2013, 04:57 AM   #757
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

The Kindle sample had me fact checking on Lucy/Desi and the history of three-camera setups, led to wikipedia, led to the intricacies of the Lucy Show and Here's Lucy. About an hour of my life I'll never get back. I remember seeing reruns of those and knowing even as a kid they sucked compared to the I Love Lucys. Ah, memories.
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Old December 7 2013, 05:18 AM   #758
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

I recently watched almost all of I Love Lucy (still have a few of the comedy hours left), but haven't been in a rush to see any of Lucy's subsequent television shows. Everything I've read about them has been less than kind, even when it comes to The Lucy Show (the immediate follow-up to I Love Lucy, which had Desi Arnaz onboard in a creative role early on).

If that turns out to be true, it's a total shame. Lucille Ball may have been a terrible studio head, but she was a very, very funny performer.
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Old December 7 2013, 05:43 AM   #759
Maurice
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

trekker670 wrote: View Post
It's statements like these that are encouraging my purchase of the book.

It's one thing to make a personal stand and decide not to purchase the book because of something that you believe is wrong. That's your right and I fully support it.

What I don't agree with is making it your personal mission to undermine the sale of this book because of your beliefs, even though they have no legal standing or at least the parties involved aren't interested in stopping the sale of the book because of it.
"Mission" makes it all so grand. I tell people about the photo issue and most of them choose not to support such conduct. I don't told a phaser to their heads.

If you want to buy the book, do it because you want the book, not to spite me. You're not hurting me at all. Just remember the kind of people and behavior you're rewarding by doing so.
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Old December 7 2013, 07:18 AM   #760
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Everyone must do what they feel comfortable doing, and we should all be satisfied with that.

I bought the book for the words, not the pictures. If the words disappoint (inaccuracies, fallacies) enough, I'll put my money back in my pocket.
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Old December 7 2013, 05:47 PM   #761
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Harvey wrote: View Post
I recently watched almost all of I Love Lucy (still have a few of the comedy hours left), but haven't been in a rush to see any of Lucy's subsequent television shows. Everything I've read about them has been less than kind, even when it comes to The Lucy Show (the immediate follow-up to I Love Lucy, which had Desi Arnaz onboard in a creative role early on).

If that turns out to be true, it's a total shame. Lucille Ball may have been a terrible studio head, but she was a very, very funny performer.
The first year or two had the same writers as ILL. TLS was a gambit with CBS who wanted Lucy, but Desilu wanted things too. After the first year, the writers left, the premise became very fluid. It and its sequel sound lazy and self-indulgent (lots of guest stars playong themselves). It was highly rated through the poor-taste, middlebrow Sixties, though.
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Old December 8 2013, 10:33 AM   #762
Shaka Zulu
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
He'd get farther financially if he spent the year working at McDonald's or Walmart. As with startrekhistory, he is essentially giving the ST community a thing of value at some personal sacrifice.
I disagree; working at McDonald's and Wal-Mart and earning enough to live on would be possible if you were being paid a maximum wage of about $20.00 US, but at the rate of wages paid, you'd only be able to live on both wages from both companies if you were on welfare as well (which Wal-Mart encourages you to get!) However hard it was for him to write this, he'll probably be getting more money from sales of the book to willing fans.
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Old December 8 2013, 09:18 PM   #763
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

That's why The Cloud Minders was more fact than fiction--here we have Norm nixons "Freedom" ship for ex-patriots and bit-coin hoarders with no taxes paid on them.
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Old December 9 2013, 04:25 AM   #764
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

About 3/4 through and I just passed an image that credited "Courtesy of Gurian" and also had something like "also found on the Internet" and cited startrekhistory.com.
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Old December 9 2013, 05:09 AM   #765
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Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

In the new edition, or the old? I'm really curious how the photo credits in the new version read compared to the old (which credited startrekhistory and birdofthegalaxy on exactly one photo -- which was also credited to 'The Collector').
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