RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,885
Posts: 5,222,390
Members: 24,232
Currently online: 633
Newest member: shadow55

TrekToday headlines

De Lancie Joins Mind Puppets
By: T'Bonz on Apr 24

Cumberbatch One Of Time Magazine’s Most Influential
By: T'Bonz on Apr 24

Trek Actor Smithsonian Magazine Cover First
By: T'Bonz on Apr 24

Takei To Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Yelchin In New Comedy
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

U.S. Rights For Pegg Comedy Secured
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Shatner: Aging and Work
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Kurtzman And Orci Go Solo
By: T'Bonz on Apr 22

Star Trek #32 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Apr 22

Voyager Bridge Via The Oculus Rift
By: T'Bonz on Apr 21


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old August 22 2013, 12:58 AM   #241
Harvey
Admiral
 
Harvey's Avatar
 
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

stcanada29 wrote: View Post
I did Google and research info on the Copyright laws and I think others should do so also before speaking out of turn.
Maurice did more than peruse Google for a legal opinion; he spoke with an entertainment lawyer, who advised him that:

1) That "basically CBS owns the images." In other words, they are not, as "the collector" has asserted (on Facebook and Amazon) "without question part of the public domain." Although Jacobs Brown Press has mantained that the images are public domain, they are suspiciously absent from the cover (front and back) of the book, as has been pointed out in this thread.

2) That, although not a transformative work, the restorations of Star Trek History, BirdoftheGalaxy, and any others constitute "added work" and are not free for anyone to use without permission.

--

As for the "tell" about the photos, there's no need to speculate; it's not a secret. Several of the images posted on the These Are The Voyages Facebook page to promote the book (and subsequently used in it, albeit in black and white and at far less resolution) have the same "defects and JPEG compression artifacts" as the ones on Star Trek History.

--

None of this addresses the ethical dilemma, of course, which is that "the collector" (who's name is not hard to figure out -- it's plastered all over the book and the Jacobs Brown Press website -- but I'll play along in case there's some sort of legal concern by the TrekBBS) is credited as the source of numerous images in the book which "the collector" obtained from other parties without their permission (these are Star Trek History, Birdofthegalaxy, and perhaps others). Those other parties are not credited for any of the photos in the book (so far; I'm on page 350).

--

Speaking of the book, the author or his co-author seems to have lazily used IMDB as a source more than a few times. Discussing Grace Lee Whitney's departure from the show, for example, the book observes that she appeared "on the small screen" in Star Trek: New Voyages and in the "videogame" Star Trek: Of Gods and Men (which is credited as being "video" on IMDB, thus, I believe, the mistake). GSchnitzer should take this mistake in stride; his work has been elevated from being a fan film to television!
__________________
"This begs explanation." - de Forest Research on Star Trek

My blog: Star Trek Fact Check.
Harvey is offline  
Old August 22 2013, 02:46 AM   #242
stcanada29
Lieutenant
 
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Harvey:
Feel free to persist in your lynch mob mentality; I feel sad for you. It's clear (to me) that a blanket statement from a lawyer assigning total ownership of all images to CBS is an ill-conceived, ill-informed remark. As I said, The Copyright Act of 1976 changed how the laws applied to shows like TNG and the others that came afterwards. As TOS was produced in the '60s, it technically fell under the Copyright Act of 1909. (Yes, we have to go back to 1909 since that was the last landmark statute passed prior to the mid-70s). Under that act, copyright protection attached to original works only when those works were 1) published and 2) had a notice of copyright affixed. Paramount did copyright the episodes themselves as broadcast but they did not do so for all the behind the scenes photos since they felt no one would care about an unimportant show called Star Trek - and it would vanish from the public consciousness after a few years of being off the air. By failing to register the individual images one by one; Paramount forfeited all intellectual property rights to those images and they became part of the "public domain". Don't trust me, get Maurice to ask his lawyer pal specifically about it. And mention the images were not part of the episode but behind the scenes photos. And remind the lawyer of the Copyright Act of 1909.

As said before by many, restoration grants NO RIGHTS. Deal with it.

As for images in the book, please scan a copy of one of those 2" x 2" photos and SHOW the same JPEG compression defects in the Book Photo and on the startrekhistory photo. Stuff on facebook pages is web based and free for all to view; that's not the same as the contents of the book. For your information, most photos uploaded to the web are small images (meant for easy upload) and simply do not have the high 600 dpi to 1200 dpi resolution that would make them acceptable for printed publishing. That throws a wrench into your theory of some pics just being plucked from startrekhistory's website and being directly dropped into a printed book. Anyway, start showing some side by side comparisons FROM the book versus from startrekhistory. And don't worry about scanning an image from the book. You see, even it was still owned by CBS, which it isn't, there is something called Fair Use which entitles brand new works of art that are copyright to be shown elsewhere for limited, reporting purposes - without asking permission, as long as it is not excessive.

Stop trying to make grand, all encompassing statements about matters which it is very apparent that you know little about and have not researched even slightly. And regarding the use of behind the scenes imagery on the book covers, that speaks to a different issue of product packaging / marketing which would require permission from the person whose likeness is being used. That doesn't apply when the images are inside the covers of the book.

Grow up and stop hating. And don't buy the book if you are turned off by tiny black and white images that could have come from any of a large number of sources, do not detract from the beauty of the freely available large color photos on the web, are absolutely not owned by startrekhistory.com. Don't buy the book; and don't accuse Marc Cushman of illegally reproducing those images. And prove your case about a BW book image irrefutably being sourced from startrekhistory - or stop asserting what you have not proved to be true.

Last edited by stcanada29; August 22 2013 at 03:18 AM.
stcanada29 is offline  
Old August 22 2013, 03:05 AM   #243
1001001
Putting the F-U Back in FUN!
 
1001001's Avatar
 
Location: People's Gaypublic of Drugafornia
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

stcanada29 wrote: View Post
Harvey:
Feel free to persist in your lynch mob mentality; I feel sad for you. It's clear (to me) that a blanket statement from a lawyer assigning total ownership of all images to CBS is an ill-conceived, ill-informed remark. As I said, The Copyright Act of 1976 changed how the laws applied to shows like TNG and the others that came afterwards. As TOS was produced in the '60s, it technically fell under the Copyright Act of 1909. (Yes, we have to go back to 1909 since that was the last landmark statute passed prior to the mid-70s). Under that act, copyright protection attached to original works only when those works were 1) published and 2) had a notice of copyright affixed. Paramount did copyright the episodes themselves as broadcast but they did not do so for all the behind the scenes photos since they felt no one would care about an unimportant show called Star Trek - and it would vanish from the public consciousness after a few years of being off the air. By failing to register the individual images one by one; Paramount forfeited all intellectual property rights to those images and they became part of the "public domain". Don't trust me, get Maurice to ask his lawyer pal specifically about it. And mention the images were not part of the episode but behind the scenes photos. And remind the lawyer of the Copyright Act of 1909.

As said before my many, restoration grants NO RIGHTS. Deal with it.

As for images in the book, please scan a copy of one of those 2" x 2" photos and SHOW the same JPEG compression defects in the Book Photo and on the startrekhistory photo. Stuff on facebook pages is web based and free for all to view; that's not the same as the contents of the book. For your information, most photos uploaded to the web are small images (meant for easy upload) and simply do not have the high 600 dpi to 1200 dpi resolution that would make them acceptable for printed publishing. Anyway, start showing some side by side comparisons FROM the book versus from startrekhistory. And don't worry about scanning an image from the book. You see, even it was still owned by CBS, which it isn't, there is something called Fair Use which entitles brand new works of art that are copyright to be shown elsewhere for limited, reporting purposes.

Stop trying to make grand, all encompassing statements about matters which it is very apparent that you know little about and have not researched even slightly. And regarding the use of behind the scenes imagery on the book covers, that speaks to a different issue of product packaging / marketing which would require permission from the person whose likeness is being used. That doesn't apply when the images are inside the covers of the book.

Grow up and stop hating. And don't buy the book if you are turned off by tiny black and white images that could have come from any of a large number of sources, do not detract from the beauty of the freely available large color photos on the web, are absolutely not owned by startrekhistory.com. Don't buy the book; and don't accuse Marc Cushman of illegally reproducing those images.
Okay, that's about enough. I don't know what your stake is in this book, but knock it off. People are entitled to their opinions. You're making it personal.
__________________
“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States...The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge'.” - Isaac Asimov
1001001 is offline  
Old August 22 2013, 03:23 AM   #244
Harvey
Admiral
 
Harvey's Avatar
 
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

I'm going to have to side with Maurice on this one, since he consulted an actual entertainment lawyer, rather than use Google and proceed to berate others for not doing any research.

Things like my alleged "lynch mob mentality" and your cry that I should "grow up and stop hating" don't exactly make your case, either.
__________________
"This begs explanation." - de Forest Research on Star Trek

My blog: Star Trek Fact Check.
Harvey is offline  
Old August 22 2013, 03:25 AM   #245
stcanada29
Lieutenant
 
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

1001001 wrote: View Post
Okay, that's about enough. I don't know what your stake is in this book, but knock it off. People are entitled to their opinions. You're making it personal.
People are certainly entitled to their own opinions. But does that include spreading misinformation without dutiful research, or attempting to tarnish reputations by implying unlawful behavior? Do you not take exception to that type of mentality?
stcanada29 is offline  
Old August 22 2013, 03:30 AM   #246
1001001
Putting the F-U Back in FUN!
 
1001001's Avatar
 
Location: People's Gaypublic of Drugafornia
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

stcanada29 wrote: View Post
1001001 wrote: View Post
Okay, that's about enough. I don't know what your stake is in this book, but knock it off. People are entitled to their opinions. You're making it personal.
People are certainly entitled to their own opinions. But does that include spreading misinformation without dutiful research, or attempting to tarnish reputations by implying unlawful behavior? Do you not take exception to that type of mentality?
I'm not going to be drawn into that debate.

People are expressing their opinions about the practice involved. You're making it personal by insulting posters. Just stop, and it will all be good.
__________________
“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States...The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge'.” - Isaac Asimov
1001001 is offline  
Old August 22 2013, 03:33 AM   #247
Harvey
Admiral
 
Harvey's Avatar
 
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

stcanada29 wrote: View Post
As for images in the book, please scan a copy of one of those 2" x 2" photos and SHOW the same JPEG compression defects in the Book Photo and on the startrekhistory photo. Stuff on facebook pages is web based and free for all to view; that's not the same as the contents of the book.
So, you are suggesting Jacobs Brown Press used the images taken from Star Trek History on their Facebook page, but when publishing them in the book, had an alternate, higher resolution source? I'll avoid spending my time making scans of the book, because this makes no sense.
__________________
"This begs explanation." - de Forest Research on Star Trek

My blog: Star Trek Fact Check.
Harvey is offline  
Old August 22 2013, 03:40 AM   #248
stcanada29
Lieutenant
 
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

My apologies to Harvey, then. It just seemed to me that he is putting a lot of faith in one lawyer's remarks which to me appeared very broad and all encompassing ... and in direct contrast to my research. I wonder if Maurice would elaborate on how the info was presented to the lawyer - if there was a discussion of out take images versus episodic content, etc.

So if, as Harvey suggests, CBS owns the rights to all of these images, wouldn't the book publisher have consulted lawyers of their own to determine if the images could be printed? And since the publisher acknowledges that the book is not approved or endorsed by CBS; wouldn't they be acting very foolishly and totally opening themselves up to a lawsuit by including all of those pics inside their books?
stcanada29 is offline  
Old August 22 2013, 03:48 AM   #249
stcanada29
Lieutenant
 
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Regarding the facebook page images; they are clearly not the same ones in the book. They are color, for one thing. And it doesn't seem strange to me to post a 100KB photo on the web for easy upload purposes and fast webpage refresh purposes; and use a different image in a book. Books really require much higher resolution source files - I am told. How about just scanning a single photo from the book to irrefutably prove your claim of jpeg artifacts identical to those at startrekhistory?
stcanada29 is offline  
Old August 22 2013, 04:10 AM   #250
Melakon
Rear Admiral
 
Melakon's Avatar
 
Location: Unmarked grave, Ekos
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

There's something very strange about a user who joins the board 4 days ago, comes into this thread, and defends the publication vigorously with each post. In less than 4 days, that defense has grown increasingly hostile to commenters.

And really, I don't understand how a few hours of research on Google by any Joe Blow is somehow more authoritative than the legal opinion drawn by an entertainment lawyer who is trained in these kinds of matters, and knows copyright and free use laws by profession.

And judging from some of the posts by this individual, a few of them read as if they're not even written by the same person.

That's just my opinion of course. Though I'm sure I'm going to get a personal insult due to it.
__________________
Curly: Moe, Larry, the cheese! Moe, Larry, the cheese! (Horses Collars, 1935)
Melakon is offline  
Old August 22 2013, 05:25 AM   #251
plynch
Commodore
 
plynch's Avatar
 
Location: Outer Graceland
View plynch's Twitter Profile
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

To answer a previous question way upthread, yes, photos do become public domain. Things used to be 28 plus another 28 if you renewed. Now old photos are 95 years after the first publication. I almost took a chance on using some from early in Louis' life, in my book, since they were taken before 1917. But I couldn't ascertain when they were first made available to the public.

I would recomend us all agreeing we do not have the expertise on the copyright pertaining to the restoration of allegedly pilfered trims. I find it fascinating; but what seems to bug people is that the use of the photos comes off as just a crummy move, even if legal.
__________________
Author of Live Like Louis! Inspirational Stories from the Life of Louis Armstrong, http://livelikelouis.com
plynch is offline  
Old August 22 2013, 06:43 AM   #252
CrazyMatt
Commander
 
CrazyMatt's Avatar
 
Location: Paradise
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Of course, the irony here is that the book describes, in exquisite detail, the conflicts that took place on almost every episode produced for Season One between writers over (1) who got credit for what or (2) who messed things up by changing (re-writing, actually) someone else's work.

Karma, I guess!
__________________
"You are speaking to a senior officer, Kirk!"
CrazyMatt is offline  
Old August 22 2013, 12:38 PM   #253
bbailey861
Admiral
 
bbailey861's Avatar
 
Location: Kingston, ON
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Melakon wrote: View Post
There's something very strange about a user who joins the board 4 days ago, comes into this thread, and defends the publication vigorously with each post. In less than 4 days, that defense has grown increasingly hostile to commenters.
I thought the same thing, too, and will leave it at that.

I finally made a trip across the line, got hold of my copy (I have a U.S. mailbox near Watertown, N.Y. that I use to avoid ridiculous postage charges to Canada), and did a quick flip through. I have to admit I am very pleased with the snippets that I've read so far and look forward to getting into it in detail.

I did manage to start with the forward, acknowledgements, etc. and with the very extensive list of names mentioned, I have to ask myself why the inclusion of one more could not have been considered. While it appears that it needn't be necessary, legally, it seems such a simple thing to do, morally.
bbailey861 is online now  
Old August 22 2013, 01:31 PM   #254
Forbin
Admiral
 
Forbin's Avatar
 
Location: I said out, dammit!
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

You guys still fighting over this? Jeez! Meanwhile, I've almost finished reading the book.
Forbin is offline  
Old August 22 2013, 06:32 PM   #255
HaplessCrewman
Commander
 
HaplessCrewman's Avatar
 
Location: Office of Scientific Intelligence
Re: New Book about TOS: These Are The Voyages

Can we get to some discussion of the content of the book itself?

I've gotten through the creation of the series and up to The Corbomite Maneuver. The look at the production is incredibly detailed with call sheets and schedules, etc. I find that less interesting than looking at the series as a whole. I have skipped to the end of the production of the first 16 episodes and Grace Lee Whitney's exit. (BTW, what is the consensus over her departure from the series? The book cites some pretty ugly circumstances from her autobiography.)

Anyway, the episode info is just too detailed to be read straight through. Maybe I will read them as I re-watch the individual shows.

I love how he calls Star Trek II "The Wrath of Kahn". We're sci-fi buffs - not proofreaders! lol I swear, this will never go away. I say we start calling Trek III "The Search for Dr. Spock". But I digress...

Re: the photo copyright issue. I'd just assume everything Trek-related is copyright CBS (BTS stuff included). I don't lose any sleep over this book's use of the material.

I'm much more upset over Warner Bros' treatment of Siegel and Shuster vis-à-vis Man of Steel, etc. Not to mention Marvel's treatment of Jack Kirby and I still go see those Marvel movies...
__________________
Better than he was before. Better...stronger...faster.
HaplessCrewman is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Tags
book, tos

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:16 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.