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View Poll Results: Who would have won ultimately?
UFP 11 55.00%
Klingons 3 15.00%
Stalemate 6 30.00%
Voters: 20. You may not vote on this poll

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Old July 17 2013, 03:13 AM   #76
T'Girl
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

Pavonis wrote: View Post
hey could've at least shuffled them up a bit.
They did, they removed Worf and Troi.

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Old July 17 2013, 03:33 AM   #77
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Yeah, I think you missed my point. It doesn't matter if "most of the crew" is different. The command crew (the main characters) are exactly the same. What are the odds? They could've at least shuffled them up a bit.
No you missed the point, actually. It's that, or you are just being intentionally confrontational. And of course it matters if most of the crew is different because it shoots your theory down. The command crew is made up of what is supposedly the best of the best in starfleet, being that the Enterprise is the flag ship in both timelines. Picard was the best captain who gets appointed the flag ship. Naturally he is going to make similar crew selections.
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Old July 17 2013, 04:05 AM   #78
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Pavonis wrote: View Post
hey could've at least shuffled them up a bit.
They did, they removed Worf and Troi.



Worf doesn't count. Troi has the most non-appearances anyway. Doesn't mean she wasn't there.

I don't buy the "best of the best" argument, either. If Starfleet lets one captain hog the best officers of the fleet then they deserve to lose. If Riker is so good, he should be in charge of his own ship in the war timeline. Same with Data. And if the war has radically changed the events of the timeline, then the supposed "butterfly effect" should lead all the characters to be dispersed throughout the fleet, not concentrated on the same ship.
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Old July 17 2013, 04:27 AM   #79
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

Pavonis wrote: View Post
I don't think the generals and admirals would be significantly different. I suspect K'mpec would be the leader in the alternate timeline, using the war with the Federation to distract the various factions in the Empire from fighting each other. And I think that since Picard, Riker, LaForge, Data, and the Crushers have the exact same positions in both timelines suggests that little else is changed. If the war timeline were radically different, I'd expect an Admiral Picard commanding fleets, with Captains Riker and Data commanding ships and a Lieutenant or Lieutenant Commander Wes Crusher leading troops at the front. The E-D would look more like the Defiant and less like an exploration vessel. If I'm going to be convinced that the war timeline is radically different I need to understand how everything but the Enterprise is changed so much. I understand why it is not different production-wise, but not in-universe.
Pavonis wrote: View Post
Again, that their career paths converged so exactly must say something about the similarities between the timelines.

Perhaps the parallels between the timelines say that the Federation didn't take the war as seriously as it should have in the early stages, so they focused just as much on exploration as they did in the prime timeline, but Starfleet found itself ground down by the relentless Klingon advances until they realized they should have been putting more resources towards the war then had been. By then it was too late....
Pavonis wrote: View Post
And if the war has radically changed the events of the timeline, then the supposed "butterfly effect" should lead all the characters to be dispersed throughout the fleet, not concentrated on the same ship.
So which is it? The timelines are too similar or too different? You seem to be contradicting yourself.
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Old July 17 2013, 04:34 AM   #80
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

The point is the war timeline isn't different, as shown by the completely same people serving in the same ship, which makes it a viable point in arguing the Klingons would beat the Federation, since they did beat them. If the E-D is the same, how could everything else be radically different? It can't.
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Old July 17 2013, 04:45 AM   #81
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

Pavonis wrote: View Post
The point is the war timeline isn't different, as shown by the completely same people serving in the same ship, which makes it a viable point in arguing the Klingons would beat the Federation, since they did beat them. If the E-D is the same, how could everything else be radically different? It can't.
But it has been established there ARE differences in crew membership

You can't say the Enterprise is the same because you don't know that. There are visual internal differences. All you can say is that the external view looks the same, visually.

While I agree with you that the Feds probably would at best stalemate the Klingons, whom I believe could possibly win (though they would be devastated too), YE is only a possible scenario. Not to mention, in the YE timeline, the war starts some 30 years prior, with the war coming to a conclusion in the 2360s. In the Prime timeline, it didn't start until 2372. A lot can happen in 30 years. It would be like saying because the British fleet could beat the US fleet in 1925, that it therefore should also be able to beat the US fleet in 1955.
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Old July 17 2013, 04:52 AM   #82
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

1. The minor differences in crew in YE are no more significant than the episode-to-episode differences in crew seen in the prime timeline.

2. What new technologies exist in the 2360s that don't exist in the 2340s, and that would influence the outcome of a war? Similarly, what's new in the 2370s that wouldn't already exist in the 2360s?
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Old July 17 2013, 05:47 AM   #83
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

It's no different than how in the Mirror Universe in TOS, the ship still had the same crew as well.

It's just a conceit of these types of stories, you just roll with it.
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Old July 17 2013, 05:54 AM   #84
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

Pavonis wrote: View Post
1. The minor differences in crew in YE are no more significant than the episode-to-episode differences in crew seen in the prime timeline.
Small sample size. You can't assume that the crew isn't different based on the events of only a few days. It's entirely possible that a member of Picard's senior staff was absent during the events in question (undercover mission, shore leave, etc.) but would otherwise have been present. There's no information that suggests this, but there's no information that rules it out, either.

Pavonis wrote:
2. What new technologies exist in the 2360s that don't exist in the 2340s, and that would influence the outcome of a war? Similarly, what's new in the 2370s that wouldn't already exist in the 2360s?
It's clear from the dialogue that there have been significant advances in weaponry over the period we're talking about. Both LaForge and Garrett have lines indicating as much. To assume that technology wouldn't advance because of the war doesn't make sense. If anything, I'd expect the war to serve as an incentive to develop newer technology faster compared to the primary universe. There's precedent for this in our own history.

The United States made significant technological and economic strides during and immediately following World War II secondary to the creation of new jobs for the American people. If such a thing can happen in a post-Depression society, it certainly can happen in the United Federation of Planets.

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Old July 17 2013, 06:02 AM   #85
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

Pavonis wrote: View Post
1. The minor differences in crew in YE are no more significant than the episode-to-episode differences in crew seen in the prime timeline.

2. What new technologies exist in the 2360s that don't exist in the 2340s, and that would influence the outcome of a war? Similarly, what's new in the 2370s that wouldn't already exist in the 2360s?
Military technologies can evolve significantly in a decade. The Federation, which had been prepping for war against the Borg and Dominion, had advanced its technology beyond what it had in the 2340s.

Needless to say, the advancement of technology moves much faster in a civilization preparing for war than one at war.

Notice how Klingon ships never seem to change during the Dominion War, while Starfleet's ships eventually become unrecognizable. Initially, Starfleet battlegroups consist of Mirandas and Excelsiors, but, by Chin'toka and the invasion of Cardassia, Starfleet consists of Akiras and Galaxies. Apart from that one Negh'Var in "The Way of the Warrior," we see only Birds of Prey and battleships in Klingon battlegroups.

That shows that Starfleet evolves, and comes up with more advanced ships, while the Klingons simply construct the same ships over and over again. If Starfleet evolves and the Klingons don't , how can it possibly be defeated?
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Old July 17 2013, 07:54 AM   #86
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

That shows that Starfleet evolves, and comes up with more advanced ships, while the Klingons simply construct the same ships over and over again. If Starfleet evolves and the Klingons don't , how can it possibly be defeated?
The Klingons did construct ships besides the BOPS (of which there are at least several variants and sizes), though, namely the Vor'cha-class and the Negh'Var-class. So their tech is not as static as that. They may have an overall tech disadvantage compared to starfleet (IE replicators, creature comforts, etc) but when it comes to weapons and speed, and cloaks (where it really counts for war), I think the edge belongs to the Klingons.

Unlike Starfleet ships, these are constructed to be completely built for war, whereas the Starfleet counterparts are multi-role, primarily built for peace keeping and exploration. Not to mention, the Klingons do have cloaks. I would hate to see what would happen to an unsuspecting Galaxy class or Sovereign class ship when a cloaked Negh'Var-class goes in for the kill! And let's not forget the BOPS aren't push overs, either. In the Defector, 3 BOPS (plus E-D)were enough to scare off 3 Romulan Warbirds. In fact, if you ask me, the Romulans must have had enough respect for the Klingon Bird of Prey design, so as to borrow heavily from their design, when they created the Valdore-type War Birds from Nemesis!

Just because they don't change their designs as much as starfleet doesn't indicate Klingon ships are less powerful. In fact, I would argue that the reason starfleet ships change in design so much more is that they were evolving from exploration\peace keeping, to all out war ships. Basically, the UFP was gradually changing designs and seeing what works and what doesn't, thus the constant upgrades and evolving designs. The Klingons didn't need to evolve because they were already on a wartime footing.

Last edited by TheSubCommander; July 17 2013 at 08:06 AM.
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Old July 20 2013, 02:11 PM   #87
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

What it comes down to is that you are saying that the Federation would lose the 2372 Klingon war in the prime timeline because a ship which looks similar on the outside and has the same name was involved in the losing end of an entirely different war that started decades earlier for entirely different reasons in a different timeline.

It's ludicrous because what you're basically saying is that the political situation, military situation, including troop and crew postings, technology, and territorial conditions between 2372 and 2373 in the prime timeline are exactly the same as the period of time between 2340s and 2360s in an alternate timeline which, as evidenced on screen, are entirely different.

Even something as small as the fact that Gowron is in charge of the Klingon side of the war in the 2370s is enough to change the entire thing.
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Old July 21 2013, 03:52 AM   #88
USS Einstein
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

While war is usually won by the side with the greatest materiel, has anyone considered that the Klingons might simply have been winning due to strategy?

Have a watch of some of General Chang's briefings, from Star Trek: Klingon Academy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=souY_zXr8ec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=582dXkM_zsQ

That game did more to make the Klingon's look rational and clever than all of DS9.

In the event of a war, the Klingons might use the Federation's fractious political nature against it, for example, attacking Andorian colonies only, placing stress on the relationship between Andor and the rest of the Federation.
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Old July 21 2013, 05:59 AM   #89
TheSubCommander
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

FKnight wrote: View Post
What it comes down to is that you are saying that the Federation would lose the 2372 Klingon war in the prime timeline because a ship which looks similar on the outside and has the same name was involved in the losing end of an entirely different war that started decades earlier for entirely different reasons in a different timeline.

It's ludicrous because what you're basically saying is that the political situation, military situation, including troop and crew postings, technology, and territorial conditions between 2372 and 2373 in the prime timeline are exactly the same as the period of time between 2340s and 2360s in an alternate timeline which, as evidenced on screen, are entirely different.

Even something as small as the fact that Gowron is in charge of the Klingon side of the war in the 2370s is enough to change the entire thing.

If you are referring to me, I never said the YE timeline is the reason I think the Feds could not win a war with the Klingons in the prime timeline in 2372-3. In addition to the post I made directly before yours, I also said this:
TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
Good points being made that Yesterday's Enterprise isn't necessarily the inevitable outcome. As stated, we don't know enough on how the Klingons were able to get the upper hand in the first place, or how their side was doing.

As of Way of the Warrior, it seems to me the Federation overall has superior tech, but Starfleet is geared more towards exploration and peacekeeping, whereas the Klingons train for war. So, I think the Klingons offset the tech advantage out of tenacity, making the odds even. The Federation ships probably have the edge one on one, but the Klingons often have a cavalry of sorts where BOPS travel in wolf packs to make up for that, and the Klingons do have a cloaks on most if not all warships, as well.

The Feds would implement their own cloak eventually, but the Klingons could potentially win key victories before the cloaks were pressed into service by the Fed. Then again, because even though the Feds would be using the cloaks against the Klingons, that would violate the Romulan-UFP treaty, and they may not want to risk angering the Romulans and possibly fight a 2 front war. So, it is possible they may abstain from using cloaks.


I therefore voted stalemate, but lean towards the Klingons slightly, though if they were able to pull out a victory, I would think it would be a Pyrrhic victory.
Don't confuse the conversation I was having with Pavonis, with regards to the E-D of the Y-E timeline being different than the Prime timeline, with why I think the Feds can't defeat the Klingons.
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Old August 3 2013, 04:14 AM   #90
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

Pavonis wrote: View Post
^Possibly, but Picard was afraid Starfleet would collapse in 6 months or so. If the Klingons were only going to last 7 months themselves, they'd still win. But then what have they won? A hundred or more ruined worlds? A populace continuously straining to overthrow them? An empire so large that they couldn't hope to hold it without being contaminated by the cultures and ideals within it? Or would the Klingons consider it a good game, pat themselves on the back for being the victors, write some operas about the better battles, and leave the UFP to pick up the pieces of itself, with perhaps some tribute being sent to Kronos on a regular schedule?
They never said how the Klingons were doing in the war.
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