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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old August 2 2013, 11:48 AM   #91
M.A.C.O.
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

I never really thought about the Narada in battle until reading some of the above comments. In the finale of the we see the Enterprise phasers at the 27 Narada torpedoes and has no trouble destroying them. Given they were not targeted at the Enterprise but the Jellyfish. Also at the beginning of the film the Kelvin's phasers had no trouble shooting torpedoes down that were aimed at the shuttlecrafts escaping the fight.

With those being the facts. It seems surprising that 6 Starfleet ships were not able to damage the Narada with their weapons before the Enterprise arrived. With how long the Kelvin lasted against the Narada. You would expect these new ships; 25 years after the Kelvin attack would be able to last longer in a struggle. The same can be said about 47 Klingon war birds. Unless the Narada was shooting "one-hit total destruction torpedoes" against the Klingons and the Starfleet rescue fleet. It seems implausible for the Narada to survive those encounters against such odds. With how long it took the Narada to destroy/disable the Kelvin mind you.

Unless you use the "plot dictates" everything in the movie. Like max warp for the Enterprise from Earth to Vulcan taking 30 minutes to an hour in ST09 but 3 days for the refit ENT in TMP.
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Old August 2 2013, 12:44 PM   #92
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Nero would no doubt be fully aware that his vessel was not a warship. He'd prepare his ambushes accordingly. Remember his modus operandi: he kidnaps key personnel, obtains information from them, and uses that as a weapon. Those missiles must have been but part of his true arsenal, and the only part that was a conventional weapon as such (if that - they could have been mining tools, too).

Destroying the cadet fleet was a less impressive feat than keeping anybody on Vulcan or Earth from blasting the drill to bits with a sidearm or a pickup hovertruck mounting a Gatling phaser. Neither missiles nor red matter could have achieved that! Nero was a sneaky bastard who didn't need much in the way of conventional weapons because he had had twenty-five years to come up with a plan.

Indeed, the fight with the Kelvin probably taught Nero that he should never engage in a straight-out fight with a starship, not without an ace or sixty in the sleeve.

Like max warp for the Enterprise from Earth to Vulcan taking 30 minutes to an hour in ST09 but 3 days for the refit ENT in TMP.
Why less than an hour? Kirk could have been out cold for much longer than that.

Not days, of course. But we could always argue that the three days in ST:TMP were a thing Scotty was lamenting. That is, the refit and the adventure with V'Ger had made it impossible for the ship to maintain higher speeds for the next few days at least.

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Old August 3 2013, 12:18 AM   #93
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

^ I said less than an hour because it doesn't seem like a whole lot of time passed from the time Enterprise left Earth to reaching Vulcan. Remember the events of the film.

The Enterprise is delayed from departing with the other ships for several seconds because of Sulu.

Pike orders maximum warp to Vulcan.

McCoy sedates Kirk.

Pike orders Checov to give mission broadcast. Which usually is given after the ship has began it's course. Not several hours later. Checov says they'll arrive in Vulcan in 3 minutes upon completing the mission directives and information about the lightning storm in space.

Returning to the medical bay we see McCoy with a change of cloths and discovers Kirk awake with swollen hands. It seems McCoy left Kirk on the bed, changed and came back. If he had been carefully monitoring Kirk for hours. Kirk's swollen hands wouldn't have caught him by surprise.

Kirk spends the next 3 minutes running around the ship looking for Uhura before going to worn Pike on the bridge.


The ENT was only delayed seconds by Sulu's blundering with the external inertial dampener. The ENT should've arrived while the fight with the Narada was still taking place.

We can just hand wave the discrepancies away and say that the film is moving at the speed of plot.
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Old August 3 2013, 10:20 AM   #94
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Unless you use the "plot dictates" everything in the movie. Like max warp for the Enterprise from Earth to Vulcan taking 30 minutes to an hour in ST09 but 3 days for the refit ENT in TMP.
Why would they go at maximum warp just to drop Spock off on Vulcan? Spock's great, but that's hardly a maximum warp emergency where you'd risk damaging the ship - hence the travel time difference.
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Old August 3 2013, 10:50 AM   #95
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

anh165 wrote: View Post
The Kelvin took several missles, and I believe more than 4 and it wasn't destroyed by them, only by collision.

Not saying the Vengeance can take the Narada, but we havent really fully seen what it is capable of (the torpedo cannons) and that it took 72 advanced torpedoes exploding inside the ship to actually disable her, which is a testiment to how rugged that ship is.

The attack on the enterprise at warp was with phasers, the type of damage was through disintegration of the sections of the hull where as the missles from the Narada are explosive. Suffice to say after the Enterprise was incapable of firing back or put up any defense or escape, where as it was still fairly operational after taking a hit from the Narada.
I agree. Though I'd put 4 at least crippling Vengeance to some extent (depending on the location of the hits, of course). If Kelvin was doing so well, she never would have needed to warp into Narada in the first place. IIRC, the first hits she sustained made her basically combat ineffective insofar as putting up a fight, i.e., if she decided to stay put and slug it out, she'd be dead. The captain of Kelvin obviously thought such.

Weren't the warp capable torpedoes lacking the initial warheads though? I'm guessing Spock had some form of "conventional" munitions put in place of the augments (warheads from photon torpedoes would work). But yeah, Vengeance took a heap of internal hits that bypassed its defenses and wasn't catastrophically blown apart. We can assume that Narada's torps are more powerful though. Narada only hit Enterprise once though (and it was assumed that one more would have been bad news). Vengeance fired a heap of phasers and torpedoes at Enterprise without blowing it apart. I couldn't say that several torps from Narada would have kept Enterprise intact, especially with the state of the fleet over Vulcan (and Narada can't put out too much fire at any given time).
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Old August 3 2013, 09:20 PM   #96
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Pike orders Chekov to give mission broadcast. Which usually is given after the ship has began it's course. Not several hours later.
In this situation, it could have been after pertinent facts have been sorted out, though. Chekov does reference supposedly confidential Starfleet communications intercepts, combining two that at first sight do not appear related to each other in any manner; this after a really hurried departure during which not even the senior staff aboard most ships might have known all the facts yet.

That gives us the excuse to go for a multi-hour journey - beneficial not merely because it would be more consistent with other takes on the Trek universe, but also because the journey to the opposite direction, from the erstwhile Vulcan to Earth, takes quite a bit of time. Or at least it takes Nero an eternity in terms of plot events, and our heroes only barely outrun him to Sol.

it took 72 advanced torpedoes exploding inside the ship to actually disable her, which is a testament to how rugged that ship is.
Let's remember, though, that those were "fake" torpedoes. Perhaps after Khan's modifications, there was enough warhead material left for matching one standard torpedo? Or as you say,

Weren't the warp capable torpedoes lacking the initial warheads though?
The thing is, our heroes didn't know what was inside and what wasn't, so the dialogue isn't helpful here. Carol Marcus obviously thought that when the torpedo was triggered to start a countdown to explosion, said explosion would be large, but she may have been totally wrong. She was an expert on the weapons as designed, after all, not as modified by Khan - possibly a blinding fault.

Another thing Khan may have left on the pier when modifying the torpedoes is the ability to fly at warp, or even at sublight. After all, if it ever came to Kirk actually firing the torps, Khan would have lost the game, and he isn't the sort of a guy to plan for defeats.

IIRC, the first hits she sustained made her basically combat ineffective insofar as putting up a fight, i.e., if she decided to stay put and slug it out, she'd be dead. The captain of Kelvin obviously thought such.
Interestingly, the Kelvin lost weapons capacity twice during the first fight, and regained it pretty quickly - once during the fight itself, and once between the fights. Incapacitation of the ability to fight back probably didn't feature much in Captain Robau's decisions, then. He would have had to be thinking in terms of not withstanding Nero's pounding defensively, or in terms of the Kelvin's weapons being impotent offensively in the first place, even when undamaged. Which may well have been true, as we never saw her weapons hurting the Narada in any way. The mining rig did have shields of some sort, mentioned in dialogue, even if those did little good in subsequent fights.

Why Pike would think his ship couldn't resist more of Nero's torps at Vulcan, we don't know. Sure, Pike's shields were weak, but later on we learned his ship can shoot down torpedoes. Indeed, he gave the command to prepare to fire all weapons, despite having suffered the initial hit. Quite possibly his decision to surrender to Nero stemmed from strategic thinking unrelated to the actual vulnerability of his ship... The shuttle journey did give him two advantages: the sapper team on the drill, and a delay while Nero tortured him.

That in mind, Nero's shield-shattering first hit might in fact have been fairly insignificant and not the sign of great offensive power in practice.

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Old August 3 2013, 09:28 PM   #97
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Timo wrote: View Post
it took 72 advanced torpedoes exploding inside the ship to actually disable her, which is a testament to how rugged that ship is.
Let's remember, though, that those were "fake" torpedoes. Perhaps after Khan's modifications, there was enough warhead material left for matching one standard torpedo?
They were only missing fuel cells, they said nothing about the warheads being gone.
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Old August 3 2013, 09:44 PM   #98
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

My memory of the dialogue is too hazy to carry an actual argument here... Do transcripts already exist online?

If the heroes came to know that fuel cells had been removed, they'd probably know everything there was to know about the modifications, save perhaps for minor details such as hidden switches or transponders, or software surprises.

One wonders... Did Khan really leave death traps in those torpedoes? Or did McCoy and Marcus simply fumble the opening procedure so badly because they thought the things would be booby-trapped? It wouldn't appear sensible for Khan to leave the torpedoes with the ability to blow up, especially when tampered with. Yet demonstrably they had enough oomph to harm the Vengeance...

...Unless Spock and pals actually installed proper explosives aboard the torps for the first time when removing the corpsicles.

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Old August 3 2013, 10:41 PM   #99
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Timo wrote:
Sure, Pike's shields were weak, but later on we learned his ship can shoot down torpedoes.
When they're all flying toward someone else.

Timo wrote:
That in mind, Nero's shield-shattering first hit might in fact have been fairly insignificant and not the sign of great offensive power in practice.
It is what it is on a technical level, it provides the math as to how many hits they could reasonably sustain ( not many ).

Timo wrote:
Why Pike would think his ship couldn't resist more of Nero's torps at Vulcan, we don't know.
See above. Also: all the destroyed ships. It's not some kind of mystery.
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Old August 4 2013, 10:12 PM   #100
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

We never saw the Narada ever fire energy weapons, which I imagine it held in reserve. It had just come out of the event horizon and was dazzled. Later, against the starships, it was at full strength.
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Old August 4 2013, 10:16 PM   #101
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Why should a mining rig necessarily have energy weapons? Or weapons at all?

The missiles could well be mining ordnance, designed to penetrate hard rock. Sure, death rays could also be used for the purpose, and Nero has a really big one for exactly this - but having the big beam can be taken both as indication for and counter-indication against the existence of smaller beams.

In any case, we never saw any sort of secondary weaponry, beam or otherwise. If Nero says "Fire everything!" and all we see is missiles, then that's pretty good evidence that the missiles are everything he has.

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Old August 5 2013, 03:54 AM   #102
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Whether it's a mining ship or mining ship with a Borg skingraph, the torpedoes are all she seems to have. Whether to blow up asteroids or put craters in planetoids -- or to blow starships apart due to being filled with Borg slurm, it's what she has and uses.

They work, but they don't seem to be shielded to protect them from phaser fire -- a big flaw when you think about it.

The fleet at Vulcan probably died so easily due to not having their weapons fire directed at the torpedoes, as for all they know, they can't shoot them down (they can assume they're like torpedoes they're familiar with). The same with the Klingon armada -- they don't seem to rely on phasers either, so they'd be even worst off by just slinging photons, magnetic charges and disruptor bursts at Narada.

Enterprise figured it out (it's technically easier to shoot down something coming at you than it is crossing your path too).

I doubt they could have killed Narada though via conventional means. Even with Vengeance. Kelvin warping into her didn't, and that's a lot of energy.

After Enterprise showed how easy it is to shoot down the torps, you can bet any prior engagement will end in a stalemate, with Narada withdrawing due to being unable to get hits and the other vessels unable to fatally wound her.

Narada would need to upgrade her weapons -- probably by rejoining the Romulan Star Empire. Which would make her very powerful then -- she probably has more than enough power for Plasma Torpedoes and Cloaking from that era. A dozen plasma torp tubes would probably ruin the day for anything in that era, fleet or otherwise, in addition to throwing her standard missiles out to draw phaser fire.

Narada herself seemed far too durable for typical weapons of that era. I don't think Vengeance is anywhere close to the answer.
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Old August 5 2013, 08:48 AM   #103
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

They work, but they don't seem to be shielded to protect them from phaser fire -- a big flaw when you think about it.
Not against asteroids, which very rarely fire back, I guess.

Kirk seemed to think that shooting down Starfleet torpedoes with phasers was a viable technique in ST2:TWoK, though - it simply was "too late", as Sulu put it. Perhaps photorps are harder to kill than Nero's torps, perhaps not. But apparently it's not worth the hassle to equip late 23rd or 24th century ships with anti-torpedo phasers; diverting that power to shields is the tactically preferred option.

for all they know, they can't shoot them down
Would they assume they can't, when the Enterprise and the Kelvin could?

We can of course assume they can't shoot, period - perhaps most of those ships had too few and too poorly trained crew to actually be combat-capable?

Enterprise figured it out (it's technically easier to shoot down something coming at you than it is crossing your path too).
Except Sulu shot down targets that were crossing his path. And that's actually easier, because things coming straight at you can easily maneuver erratically from side to side, creating high angular velocities, whereas things flying past you create less erratic paths with lower angular velocities with the same maneuvers. Plus there's less terror involved...

I doubt they could have killed Narada though via conventional means. Even with Vengeance. Kelvin warping into her didn't, and that's a lot of energy.
The Kelvin didn't go FTL from what we observed. But yeah, the sheer bulk of the target seems to protect it from most things.

Then again, the impact of the Kelvin rendered the Narada incapable of firing at the shuttles, or pursuing them. Basically, then, if a single cadet ship rammed the mining rig, the rest could spend the following two days firing at the rig with impunity! Surely that would give some results.

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Old August 7 2013, 06:00 AM   #104
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Yeah, rocks in space don't appear to need a shielded torpedo. If they were filled with Borg slurm (as some of the stuff states), you'd think they'd be shielded. However, we do see them split up into fragments when near their target, which seem to cause significant damage themselves (each fragment). Multiple warheads to preclude them from all being shot down when incoming? Multiple warheads to cause as much damage as possible due to various systems being hit (you just need one BB to hit the eye...). That's one interesting thing I find about them anyway, and something a self-propelled mining charge wouldn't really need. You'd just need a big boom to fragment a rock up to a planetoid in size

I can't recall that scene, but if Starfleet thinks they can during a similar period, then shields or not probably don't matter (you couldn't really put much of a shield on a torpedo anyway). Yeah, from all the powers we see, having the shields as powerful as you can make them so that they can take the hit is how they go. Narada's torps easily breaching the shields seem to be their biggest point. For example, the computer simulation with the Klingon warbirds blowing up with a single photon hit once shields are down needn't be unrealistic -- simulations usually are accurate within a certain level of parameters. This could jive with Sulu warning about a second hit being catastrophic -- as we see from Kelvin, the torpedoes of Narada don't seem to be as actually destructive as the photons in the simulator, but they can get through shields. Enterprise probably could have taken the second one barring an unlucky hit, but that'd be academic, as Narada could kill her at her leisure.

You generally have to compute a heap of lead and whatnot when firing at objects crossing your bow. Whereas if they're coming straight on, it's often just point and click for the computer -- unless you have something I forgot about with Narada's torps, the multiple warheads that are released. Though this still wouldn't preclude phasers shooting them down as soon as they're launched. There's lots of precedence in our world of point defense systems not being switched on, even though they were technically able to shoot down the incoming missile fairly easily (USS Cole and that Israeli corvette. INS Hanit I think she was called). Enterprise, the Vulcan fleet, and Kelvin all probably weren't at combat readiness (just putting people on "Red Alert" isn't the same as being ready for wartime) -- this often happens when there's a single event that isn't deemed a wartime threat. I bet if Narada was still active, focusing phasers on the shield piercing torpedoes would be a priority (with stuff like photons used for anti-shipping work).

I recall Orci (?) stated Kelvin went to warp right at the last moment, though like with the Borg stuff, I guess that's not entirely canon. Still, Kelvin was one big damn photon. :P I guess throwing several starships at Narada with no crew and phasers set on maximum point defense, could at least knock the hell out of it so as standard weapons may eventually blow her apart.

I would have made something the size of Vengeance, but with dozens of fast firing photon tubes along the bow (big torps so as to have very big antimatter warheads and possibly a warp function, just way bigger than what Marcus had -- like mini-Dreadnought from Voyager without the weapons and a larger warhead; 1,000 kilograms of antimatter doesn't take up much space); standoff at range and sling them until empty. Warp back to a tender or base to reload, and warp back into the fray. Large magazines for the same torpedoes so to have decent endurance (take a look at Vengeance's hangar; you could fit hundreds of large torpedoes in there). Lots of point defense phasers on the dorsal and ventral surface, and with the saucer section more angled to a point, so most of the PD weapons can have LOS.
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Old August 8 2013, 12:27 AM   #105
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
I think the thing we can all agree on is the fact that the USS Vengeance from Star Trek Into Darkness was awesome looking.
I was pretty underwhelmed. It looked like something out of Berman Trek. It was cool seeing it crash, though.
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