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Old July 10 2013, 11:24 AM   #106
DalekJim
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

TheMasterOfOrion wrote: View Post
A boycott is wrong. Orson Scott Card was an idiot, and hardliners in the LGBT community are being very stupid. The LGBT community already caused madness and banning during the whole Silence of the Lambs fiasco, it only helped the movie be even more successful.
The dumbest thing about that reaction was that in the movie's dialogue it was made clear Buffalo Bill wasn't a transsexual.

Another case of people seizing a chance to foster an extreme emotional reaction, despite knowing nothing about the subject.
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Old July 10 2013, 11:34 AM   #107
Rusty Nova
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

side 1: i don't want to see this movie because i don't want to fund OSC's homophobia.

side 2: not going to see this film makes you 'intolerant of bigotry' and also somehow this is censorship

which side are you?

also, for this You Lose:

DalekJim wrote: View Post
I think somebody should be allowed to openly bash gay folks
in other words ''i think somebody should be allowed to persecute a minority''
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Old July 10 2013, 12:54 PM   #108
DalekJim
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

I think somebody should be able to openly bash whoever they want to. I also think people should only use quotation marks when using a quote.
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Old July 10 2013, 01:03 PM   #109
Rusty Nova
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
I think somebody should be able to openly bash whoever they want to. I also think people should only use quotation marks when using a quote.
the quote was in a quote box and as it had your name in it i thought it obvious that was the direct quote. however i have added more words to clear that up.

you think 'bashing' a minority for being a minority is perfectly fine?

how very morally reprehensible.

if you say ''ooh that just whiny liberal political correctness'', no it's not, its called having a sense of decency.

you say you're entitled to that opinion sure, but i'm entitled to call you on it and lgbt people are entitled to have a life without constant hate being thrown at them by people like Card.
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Old July 10 2013, 01:10 PM   #110
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

You're doing that shit Cordelia did in King Lear DJ.

She died waiting for someone to decode her elite pompous twaddle.

Are you saying that anyone should have the right to say anything, but everyone should have the good sense not to be a complete fucking asshole?

Self regulation, rather than fear of punishment.
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Old July 10 2013, 01:33 PM   #111
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

"Creating the Innocent Killer: Ender's Game, Intention, and Morality"

Over the years I have told a number of friends that, if I had had access to a nuclear device when I was in seventh grade, there would be a huge crater in upstate New York centered on what used to be West Seneca Junior High School.

Had Orson Scott Card’s novel Ender’s Game existed then, I might have been one of its biggest fans. I would have been enraptured by the story of the innocent who is persecuted despite his innocence, perhaps even because of it. The superior child whose virtues are not recognized. The adults who fail to protect. The vicious bullies who get away with their bullying. That was the world as I saw it in seventh grade. Apparently this is a story that still appeals to many people: Ender’s Game is probably the most popular science fiction novel published in the last twenty years.

In relating Ender Wiggin’s childhood and training in Ender’s Game, Orson Scott Card presents a harrowing tale of abuse. Ender’s parents and older brother, the officers running the battle school and the other children being trained there, either ignore the abuse of Ender or participate in it.

Through this abusive training Ender becomes expert at wielding violence against his enemies, and this ability ultimately makes him the savior of the human race. The novel repeatedly tells us that Ender is morally spotless; though he ultimately takes on guilt for the extermination of the alien buggers, his assuming this guilt is a gratuitous act. He is presented as a scapegoat for the acts of others. We are given to believe that the destruction Ender causes is not a result of his intentions; only the sacrifice he makes for others is. In this Card argues that the morality of an act is based solely on the intentions of the person acting.
"Orson Scott Card Has Always Been..."

On the phone and in his incoherent published reply, Card repeatedly shows ignorance of what he himself purportedly wrote. I simply cannot imagine how you could write such a stunningly well crafted piece of work (inasmuch as it is wildly popular and deeply affects people) without being aware of every fibre and splinter of its composition. About the third or fourth time I heard Card say something wasn't in his book that I knew was, I began to suspect that it was more of a committee effort.

Notice that even John Kessel distances himself from the Hitler Hypothesis even though he draws many of the same conclusions Elaine does. Card manages to sound very convincing when he says Hitler was never on his mind and that it's Elaine who has the Hitler obsession; I think he's so convincing because he wasn't in on the joke himself. Elaine's essay may have been as much a revelation to him as it was to anyone else.

I've seen Elaine's notes and heard Card on the phone, and there is no doubt in my mind that the Hitler Hypothesis is correct; it is simply impossible that Ender's Game and Speaker were written by someone who did not have a very detailed knowledge of Adolph Hitler's life. There are very exact parallels in there that you wouldn't even notice unless you read the footnotes to the most detailed Hitler biographies. I also tend to believe that Card does not have that level of knowledge about Hitler. Ergo, it is very hard for me to believe that he wrote the books. The assumption that he did not explains a great many otherwise mysterious things.

Once Elaine blew their cover, the committee might have decided the game was up and left Card out to dry. This would be why it took years for him to get around to finishing the story, and why when he did many of his fans complained it was inferior to his earlier work.

Last edited by Admiral Buzzkill; July 10 2013 at 01:44 PM.
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Old July 10 2013, 01:44 PM   #112
DalekJim
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

junxon wrote: View Post
you think 'bashing' a minority for being a minority is perfectly fine?
No, I think it's dumb. I just think people should be allowed to think, feel or say whatever they like.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
You're doing that shit Cordelia did in King Lear DJ.

She died waiting for someone to decode her elite pompous twaddle.
Alright.

Are you saying that anyone should have the right to say anything, but everyone should have the good sense not to be a complete fucking asshole?
I think Orson Scott Card has the right not to support gay marriage, and me believing he has that right doesn't mean I agree with him.

A huge chunk of society don't agree with my views on marriage, as I believe in polygamy. If I boycotted everybody's work that thought marriage should only be between two people, I wouldn't be watching many movies, reading many books, or listening to many musicians. Orson Scott Card's views on marriage are probably closer to most people's than my own, as he only believes marriage should be between two people.
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Old July 10 2013, 02:14 PM   #113
Nagisa Furukawa
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
"Orson Scott Card Has Always Been..."

I simply cannot imagine how you could write such a stunningly well crafted piece of work (inasmuch as it is wildly popular and deeply affects people) without being aware of every fibre and splinter of its composition.
Sorry, but no. With very rare exceptions, the creator isn't some genius mastermind who knows every single detail perfectly. A good deal of writing and storytelling is instinctual and tapping into images and moments with such relevance that many different people can read into it and find new things about it, connecting the work to other mythology or, indeed, history.

I've seen Elaine's notes and heard Card on the phone, and there is no doubt in my mind that the Hitler Hypothesis is correct; it is simply impossible that Ender's Game and Speaker were written by someone who did not have a very detailed knowledge of Adolph Hitler's life. There are very exact parallels in there that you wouldn't even notice unless you read the footnotes to the most detailed Hitler biographies. I also tend to believe that Card does not have that level of knowledge about Hitler. Ergo, it is very hard for me to believe that he wrote the books.
Wait. So lemme get this straight.

Since the author finds the Hitler/Ender parallels SO STRONG (I don't see 'em personally, but whatever), the fact that Orson Scott Card doesn't have an intricate knowledge of Hitler... means that therefore Orson Scott Card did not write Ender's Game.

Hey, everybody! You can call off the boycott! The homophobe didn't even write the work being made into a movie.

Amazing that such crackpot nonsense is being linked to.
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Old July 10 2013, 02:18 PM   #114
DalekJim
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Nagisa Furukawa wrote: View Post
Hey, everybody! You can call off the boycott! The homophobe didn't even write the work being made into a movie.
I find it incredibly sinister that in the name of "tolerance", people would even try to insinuate an artist didn't create their own work.

As for the Hitler part, it's probably the dumbest thing I've read all week.
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Old July 10 2013, 02:19 PM   #115
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
I think somebody should be able to openly bash whoever they want to.
This is correct. A person should be able to say whatever they want about whomever they want. A person does not have the right, however, to be free of the consequences of saying whatever they want about whomever they want.

If Orson Scott Card wants concentration camps for gay men and women, if he wants governments that allow gay marriage to be violently overthrown (both positions he has advocated), he's free to say these things. I don't have to like that he says them, I'm free to disagree with them, and I don't have to financially support his work.

In short, Card's words have consequences. In asking people to tolerate his intolerance, he's acknowledging that his words have had consequences. He's also acknowledging that he doesn't intend to change.
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Old July 10 2013, 02:27 PM   #116
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Nagisa Furukawa wrote: View Post
With very rare exceptions, the creator [doesn't know] every single detail perfectly. A good deal of writing and storytelling is instinctual...
I don't know who told you that, but you've made completely incorrect inferences from whatever you were told, heard or read.

In any event, the points made don't have anything to do with "every single detail" but with major events and themes of the book.
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Old July 10 2013, 02:39 PM   #117
DalekJim
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Allyn Gibson wrote:
This is correct. A person should be able to say whatever they want about whomever they want. A person does not have the right, however, to be free of the consequences of saying whatever they want about whomever they want.
Agreed 100%.

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
Nagisa Furukawa wrote: View Post
With very rare exceptions, the creator [doesn't know] every single detail perfectly. A good deal of writing and storytelling is instinctual...
I don't know who told you that, but you've made completely incorrect inferences from whatever you were told, heard or read.

In any event, the points made don't have anything to do with "every single detail" but with major events and themes of the book.
I've been at book signing events where authors were asked questions and gave awkward, embarrassingly incorrect answers. It's not rare at all.
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Old July 10 2013, 03:08 PM   #118
YJAGG
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

never read it ( I know shame on me) did read the sumary and to me honest - 20 plus years later - meh

unless it's a crappy movie and they want all the hardcore right wingers to come and support it, by alienating gays... but I do marvel at the irony of intolerance for the intolerent

Last edited by YJAGG; July 10 2013 at 03:20 PM. Reason: mis infromation
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Old July 10 2013, 03:23 PM   #119
Sindatur
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
junxon wrote: View Post
you think 'bashing' a minority for being a minority is perfectly fine?
No, I think it's dumb. I just think people should be allowed to think, feel or say whatever they like.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
You're doing that shit Cordelia did in King Lear DJ.

She died waiting for someone to decode her elite pompous twaddle.
Alright.

Are you saying that anyone should have the right to say anything, but everyone should have the good sense not to be a complete fucking asshole?
I think Orson Scott Card has the right not to support gay marriage, and me believing he has that right doesn't mean I agree with him.

A huge chunk of society don't agree with my views on marriage, as I believe in polygamy. If I boycotted everybody's work that thought marriage should only be between two people, I wouldn't be watching many movies, reading many books, or listening to many musicians. Orson Scott Card's views on marriage are probably closer to most people's than my own, as he only believes marriage should be between two people.
You are absolutely right, Card has the right to bash anyone he wants and espouse any vile thoughts he wants, and to actively lobby for legislation against any specific group he wats to. He also has the right to be punished by society from people ignoring his work. Yes, he can't be legally shut up, he has the right voice his views, no matter who doesn't like it, and I would fight for his right to do so.

However, many people are fond of the expression, "you do not have the right to not be offended", that isn't quite true, you absolutely have the right to be offended and to not listen to what he has to say on anything (Wether that be the Wether, or Anti-Gay slurs or a SciFi novel).

So, yes, he has the right to speak, but, not the right to be heard by those offended by what he says.
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Old July 10 2013, 03:29 PM   #120
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

YJAGG wrote: View Post
never read it ( I know shame on me) did read the sumary and to me honest - 20 plus years later - meh

unless it's a crappy movie and they want all the hardcore right wingers to come and support it, by alienating gays... but I do marvel at the irony of intolerance for the intolerent
Who's being intolerant of Intolerance? no one has stated he doesn't have a right to say garbage, I will fight for his right to say garbage, even against me. And if people are irrespopnsible with that right, Society levies consequences against them, but, nobody is trying to stop him from saying such things, so there is no intolerance of his intolerance.
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