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Old July 10 2013, 04:10 AM   #91
Neroon
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
When the magic sky genie tells you to hate or you'll be tortured underground forever by his deformed son... You hate who he tells you to hate or it's a hot poker in each eye and then...

I feel that Satan is expected and supposed to rape the damned, but really, truly isn't it a little bit of a double standard that Lucifer is not only allowed to be gay but mandated to be a screaming queer? Unless of course that the Devil doesn't want to be an expert sodomist? That the prince of darkness being forced to undergo a series of endless gay activities is his own punishment for that nasty little coup he tried to pull on his dad?

So this is what's going through Orson's head... If I can make the gays feel miserable, maybe even get a couple of them back into the vagina business, then God will love me and I will have a wicked afterlife of eternal reward. It's a pay off for being an asshole. That doesn't seem too bad if god is on the level. You can't tell me that Willy Fucking Wonka has more dimensions than god? Beides, this is the exact same shit he pulled with Job.

Disguising the gate to hell as the easy way out.
Take it easy and keep things squarely focused on the topic of the thread. So far it's been in pretty good shape, considering the sensitivity of the subject. A few folks are veering into more personal territory, but it hasn't become a problem yet.
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Old July 10 2013, 04:10 AM   #92
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

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How is the morality on stealing his movie through torrents?
You go directly to the Pits of Hell.
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Old July 10 2013, 04:13 AM   #93
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Awesome Possum, I don't know you, but I've agreed with pretty much everything you've said in this thread.

98% of the time, I have no trouble separating the art from the artist. I may disagree with the politics of Gary Sinise or Kelsey Grammer, but that doesn't stop me from watching their work. I don't care for Dean Cain's politics, either, but I won't give up my Lois & Clark DVDs or skip a Dean Cain Christmas movie on the Hallmark Movie Channel. A friend asked me on Facebook if I was skipping Roman Polanski, but I don't believe that I've seen any of his work, not because he's a rapist but because I haven't been interested. I was indifferent to the Dragon*Con boycott. People are complicated.

What makes Card different, what makes Card part of that 2%, in my opinion, is this.

Having read his work, I expect better of Card.

The first Card work I read was his Foundation story, "The Originist." Then I read the first two Alvin Maker books, then I read the Ender saga as it existed (through Xenocide). Looking back on those works now, they're about outsiders. They're about people who are maligned, marginalized, shunned through no fault of their own because they're not like everyone else. The catharsis and emotional climax in these books (and "The Originist," too) often revolves around the maligned, marginalized, shunned protagonist proving his worth, finding his place, and finding acceptance.

And that's what irritates me about Card's rather virulent hatred for gay rights, because when you read his work, you feel the emotion behind his work, and you expect him to be accepting and tolerant of others and their desire for inclusiveness. Unfortunately, he's anything but on this one issue.

I haven't bought any of Card's work in about fifteen years, but it's actually for reasons of quality and not of politics. In the mid-90s Card had a run of duff books. The Ender saga ended poorly, Treasure Box was terrible, the Homecoming saga was well written but nothing exciting, his return to Alvin Maker was awful. (His last great book, in my opinion, was the Stephen King-esque Lost Boys. The last twenty pages of that book hurt.) I felt like he and I had parted ways anyway when I learned of some of his personal beliefs, which only gave me another reason not to support him.

Like I said, I expect better of Card. His message today was that of a coward who knows he's on the losing side of history, that his side has already lost, and he's trying to save his own skin.

When Card apologizes for actively hurting people in California and across the country as a member of the National Organization of Marriage, when Card apologizes for advocating the violent overthrow of governments that sanction gay marriage, when Card leads the fight to repeal North Carolina's Amendment One -- in other words, when Card actually does something positive to foster tolerance and acceptance rather than meekly asking people to accept that he's an intolerant bigot -- then I might possibly revise my opinion about Card.

But he won't. He's too small a human being to do that.
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Old July 10 2013, 04:36 AM   #94
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

For those who say you should separate yourself from the disagreement with political views, I generally do, but, this is a guy who advocated locking up and quarantining Gay people for the crime of being Gay. Being Gay, that certainly crosses my line of where I will look for Entertainment
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Old July 10 2013, 05:13 AM   #95
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Sindatur wrote: View Post
For those who say you should separate yourself from the disagreement with political views, I generally do, but, this is a guy who advocated locking up and quarantining Gay people for the crime of being Gay. Being Gay, that certainly crosses my line of where I will look for Entertainment
This. He is a board member of an organization that ACTIVELY is trying to stop equal rights. That's the line for me.

I generally could care less about the politics of an individual... but when it moves into activism... It's hard not to think that my money eventually trickles down into that organization.

And besides, the language and the things that he has advocated for go well beyond the pale of conservatism. I would like to think that even conservatives wouldn't want him on their team.

While I've read Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead, and enjoyed them both, I just can't give anymore money to this bigot.
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Old July 10 2013, 05:24 AM   #96
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

theenglish wrote: View Post
If you're referring to my reference about Bradbury, he stated that F451 is NOT about government censorship. Rather it is about the dangers of what later became political correctness. In the novel, the people demanded that books be censored because they were offended by racial slurs or content that offended people.
Yes, that's true. He also said it was about people no longer reading books in the future because of the invention of TV. So what?

Bottom line is, owning books was illegal, and possession of them meant you would be arrested and your home would be burned down. What entity wrote and enforced the law? Who employed the "firemen" who burned down the homes and books? The government. That's government censorship, regardless of how it got started with political correctness among the populace.

Bradbury is simply saying that government censorship was not his chief focus when he wrote it. Nuclear war was also not the chief focus of the novel, that doesn't mean it didn't happen in the book.

What were you talking about when you said this in the post I was responding to:

I am reminded of Fahrenheit 451. Books became illegal not because of an evil dictator but because they offended people. Part of living in a democracy means that we are all entitled to our opinions and are free to express them.

Books don't become illegal spontaneously. A government has to enforce that, whether it's the will of the people or not. Why talk about living in a democracy and freedom of expression unless you're talking about the possibility of those rights being taken away by the government?

The bottom line is, you're worrying about something which is not even an issue. His books aren't being banned. His movie isn't being banned. His writings in magazines and blogs aren't being banned. Some people are simply not going to see the movie. That's it. It's a paper tiger issue to drum up fear of something that no one here is asking for, and it's an attempt to mischaracterize the arguments of one's opponents.

By all means, we should voice our opinions against those of somebody like Card's in healthy, rationale debate -- but we should not try to censor him from having those opinions, as offensive as they are to most of us.
Again, who is censoring him? Not going to see his movie is not censoring him. The movie will still be in theaters.

This is not being "tolerant" of bigots, but it is defending their right to BE bigots if they so choose.
A right no one here is advocating should be taken away. So, congratulations once again on fighting the good fight against the thing no one was asking for.

DalekJim wrote: View Post
People have the right not to go watch Ender's Game, They do not have the right to never be offended, and their desire not to be upset should not affect other people's freedoms and happiness.
Whose freedoms are being trampled on or taken away? You just keep repeating this like a mantra. What, do you hope that if you say it enough times it'll suddenly become true and you will have been proven right?

As far as OSC's happiness is concerned, I don't give two shits about the happiness of a bigoted scumbag who advocates the violent overthrow of the government if it legalizes same-sex marriage and who thinks gays should be thrown in prison. Fuck his happiness.

Aggressive political correctness has only served to make liberals more sensitive when they do see material offensive to them.
You know, liberals aren't like Beetlejuice or Bloody Mary. They don't suddenly appear if you keep saying "Liberal! Liberal! Liberal!" over and over again like a broken record. You're the only one who's mentioned political ideologies in this thread. Everyone else has just stuck to the issue. Why don't you give it a try?

If people don't want to see Ender's Game because it'll upset them so much being reminded of the author's views regarding marital legislation, then that is fine. Weird, but fine.
There's nothing weird about not wanting to support a bigot who has used his money to affect legislation against gay people. It has nothing to do with being upset, like we're delicate flowers who can't handle the idea of a homophobe being out there.

If they don't want Orson Scott Card to receive their money because of his opinions, then that is also fine.
Then what the fuck is all the drama from your side in this thread about, since that is literally all that has been proposed?

But dismissing the book itself as being homophobic is infuriating to me.
One guy did it and was corrected by people on both sides of the issue. BFD. Get over it.

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
There's a really good other reason not to support either the book or the movie; the fact that it supports child soldiering indirectly by having Ender Wiggin and his pals be fighting a war. Why can't the Earth Government or whatever it's called just have a planetary draft, and get the troops it needs to fight the war that way? Why involve children?
Because that's what made the story interesting, especially for young readers who could relate to Ender and the other kids. To imply that it supports child soldiers in ludicrous. Christopher Nolan doesn't support vigilantism just because he directed Batman movies.

theenglish wrote: View Post
In some countries (Canada) this would be considered hate-speech. It is illegal. You cannot slur people just because of who they are.
I'm not even sure what your point is here. Are you commenting about it being illegal to use hate speech against gays or to call someone a douche (since that's the only thing in the post you quoted) in Canada?

Either way, neither myself nor Card live in Canada, so their hate speech laws are kind of a moot point here, and I will continue to call him a douche or worse with glee.

I believe that getting emotional and using emotionally charged arguments does nothing to further one's agenda and only alienates those who already disagree with your argument. As DalekJim mentioned, there are already people slurring others just because of a disagreement about the quality of Ender's Game itself or wanting to see the film. This was where my (admittedly exaggerated) comparison with the Westboro Baptist's came from.
Sorry, but the emotionally charged arguments about non-issues have been entirely on your and Jim's side of the discussion.

No one was talking about protesting the film until you brought it up. No one was talking about those protestors screaming epithets at movie goers until you brought it up (you admit to the exaggerated comparison about the WBC above). No one was talking about censorship until you brought it up. No one was talking about hate speech laws until you brought it up. The one and only thing people have been talking about is a boycott of the film by not buying tickets. That's not censorship, that's not infringing on anyone's rights, and it's not a protest in front of the theater (though if they eventually decide to do that, that's their right too). There will simply be fewer people at the theater, period. You guys are completely overreacting and getting defensive about a nothing situation.

Not going to this movie is a fine choice--getting so emotionally riled up (as some people on this board are) that you need to shout insults at people is unnecessary.
People have been perfectly fine despite repeated misrepresentations of their arguments.

And me typing insults about OSC is not shouting insults at a person, by the way, if that's what you're carrying on about. Though I'd gladly call him a bigot to his face if given the opportunity.
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Old July 10 2013, 05:26 AM   #97
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

It wasn't that long ago that homosexuality was a diagnosed mental illness with severe legal consequences that would see a person committed and electrocuted until they relented.

Orson is not proposing the unthinkable.

He just wants to turn the clock back three decades.

And really, why stop at 3?
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Old July 10 2013, 05:34 AM   #98
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
For those who say you should separate yourself from the disagreement with political views, I generally do, but, this is a guy who advocated locking up and quarantining Gay people for the crime of being Gay. Being Gay, that certainly crosses my line of where I will look for Entertainment
This. He is a board member of an organization that ACTIVELY is trying to stop equal rights. That's the line for me.

I generally could care less about the politics of an individual... but when it moves into activism... It's hard not to think that my money eventually trickles down into that organization.

And besides, the language and the things that he has advocated for go well beyond the pale of conservatism. I would like to think that even conservatives wouldn't want him on their team.

While I've read Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead, and enjoyed them both, I just can't give anymore money to this bigot.
During the whole homophobes should not be allowed to write Superman comics, I followed a link to that group, and then on their site I followed a link to their tax returns.

They play with less than 3 million dollars a year, and only a third of that is earmarked for actual lobbying.

Again, he's doing bad things, but on an incredibly smaller scale than his detractors are giving him credit for... Although his fame and celebrity are probably a more effective tool than the million dollars on the table, which is probably just wasted on a couple direct mail campaign's that go straight in most everyone's rubbish bins.
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Old July 10 2013, 06:03 AM   #99
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
For those who say you should separate yourself from the disagreement with political views, I generally do, but, this is a guy who advocated locking up and quarantining Gay people for the crime of being Gay. Being Gay, that certainly crosses my line of where I will look for Entertainment
This. He is a board member of an organization that ACTIVELY is trying to stop equal rights. That's the line for me.

I generally could care less about the politics of an individual... but when it moves into activism... It's hard not to think that my money eventually trickles down into that organization.

And besides, the language and the things that he has advocated for go well beyond the pale of conservatism. I would like to think that even conservatives wouldn't want him on their team.

While I've read Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead, and enjoyed them both, I just can't give anymore money to this bigot.
During the whole homophobes should not be allowed to write Superman comics, I followed a link to that group, and then on their site I followed a link to their tax returns.

They play with less than 3 million dollars a year, and only a third of that is earmarked for actual lobbying.

Again, he's doing bad things, but on an incredibly smaller scale than his detractors are giving him credit for... Although his fame and celebrity are probably a more effective tool than the million dollars on the table, which is probably just wasted on a couple direct mail campaign's that go straight in most everyone's rubbish bins.
So, just because 1 million dollars goes towards legislating bigotry, I shouldn't not buy his stuff? A hate organization "only" has three million dollars a year so I should be nicer?

Is that your point?
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Old July 10 2013, 06:22 AM   #100
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

You're being just mean enough.

For about 5 minutes I thought he was Lex Luthor buying the white house, but it turned out that Orson was only Cluemaster knocking over a bakery. If you want to hate him for how he thinks, that fine, but don't be afraid of his "power" becuase Mr Card has very very little.
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Old July 10 2013, 06:24 AM   #101
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post

During the whole homophobes should not be allowed to write Superman comics, I followed a link to that group, and then on their site I followed a link to their tax returns.

They play with less than 3 million dollars a year, and only a third of that is earmarked for actual lobbying.
Well, they *are* losing. Their donors are turning off the spigots. But here's their 2011 tax form, it shows receipts of $7.2 million in 2011, down from $9.6 million the year before.
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Old July 10 2013, 06:42 AM   #102
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
You're being just mean enough.

For about 5 minutes I thought he was Lex Luthor buying the white house, but it turned out that Orson was only Cluemaster knocking over a bakery. If you want to hate him for how he thinks, that fine, but don't be afraid of his "power" becuase Mr Card has very very little.
Who said I'm afraid of his "power"? It's a lovely straw man, but, simply put, I don't want even a cent of my money going towards something I don't believe in.

And before certain people get their feathers in a bunch, screaming, "but that probably happens with a lot of things you buy..." Yes, sure, but I don't KNOW... with Card, I do.

I'm not giving him any of my money.
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Old July 10 2013, 07:05 AM   #103
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

IndyJones wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post

During the whole homophobes should not be allowed to write Superman comics, I followed a link to that group, and then on their site I followed a link to their tax returns.

They play with less than 3 million dollars a year, and only a third of that is earmarked for actual lobbying.
Well, they *are* losing. Their donors are turning off the spigots. But here's their 2011 tax form, it shows receipts of $7.2 million in 2011, down from $9.6 million the year before.
$7.2 million is still a lot of money to see funneled into a hate group like that. It's not hard to imagine the good that money could be spent on instead. Hopefully, though, the downward trend continues, and the faster the better.
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Old July 10 2013, 07:47 AM   #104
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Orson Scott Card did not say "don't boycott MY film!", its not his film to start with, its the film of Viola Davis, the film of Harrison Ford, the film of the studios....but its not just Cards film. Orson Scott Card would not have said MY film, which is a falsehood. Card is crazy but he's not stupid enough to claim the whole film to be his, these films by their nature are adaptations based on written works.

A boycott is wrong. Orson Scott Card was an idiot, and hardliners in the LGBT community are being very stupid. The LGBT community already caused madness and banning during the whole Silence of the Lambs fiasco, it only helped the movie be even more successful.

I kinda knew something like this was coming after reading Ender and hearing he was Mormon church goer and getting hints of his political opinion. I have read all kinds of silly political opinions in Hollywood with Adam Baldwins or Rosie'Donnells there are so many nutty people there, just because someone says something offensive I'm not going to suddenly start boycotting and burning all those FullMetalJacket and ALeagueofTheirOwn dvds or boycotting all StarTrek bluray dvds because someone in the family said something I don't like.

There are just so many crackpots in Hollywood and I wish they would keep thier mouths shut but they don't. Politics should be in one section, the books, comics, movies entertainment in the other section. Keep them separate or at least Card and others like him should learn to shut their yaps. However the audience should also learn to separate the political opinion of one person and the opinion of the whole studio.
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post

I've enjoyed both the Ender books and the Alvin books. They are among my favorites. I also like a lot of Heinlein's work, even the ones that wear their politics on their sleeves. More so in my twenties than now. Maturity might be a factor there. Also some of the idea are so farout you can't take them too seriously.
exactly these works are just pieces of art and entertainment


Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
How is the morality on stealing his movie through torrents?
I don't think there is any

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Nothing stops a boycott quite like giving it more attention in the press
The Silence of the Lambs boycott only promoted the movie more and helped the movie sell even more tickets
Personally I prefer the whole dignified approach to supporting gay rights like say Jodie Fosters activism, rather than the radical aggressive approach you see from some LGBT activists.

DalekJim wrote: View Post

I think you're limiting yourself for no real reason. I can enjoy films from Russian communist filmmakers or even a Nazi director like Leni Reifenstahl. I can listen to Wagner, Burzum, etc.

I worry sometimes modern liberalism makes a virtue of being offended. I assure you that Ender's Game has nothing to do with homosexuality.
Some people are programed today are way too over-sensitive on everything, programed by their radios and tvs to re-act at the slightest thing offensive. Somebody draws a funny cartoon in the middle east and all of a sudden you have mobs of muslims attacking Americans and burning down European embassies. The media spreads rumors of looting after a Hurricane and all of a sudden everyone gets freaked out with their guns ready to shoot anything that moves near their house. Silly Interest groups and their 'thought-police' have a good profit in creating hysteria, it promotes their stupid agenda, helps them generate more publicity.
Boycotting Ender won't do anything, it will do nothing at all for gay rights and Ender has nothing against homosexuality, there might be an argument for it doing something controversial like promoting "child-soldiering" but Ender itself has nothing against gays.
If LGBT community are to politically attack anyone they should fire on Card himself but attacking the movie is a waste of time and stupid.


Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
I can separate the artist from the art.
Can you really?

Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
But Card is a whiny little bitch, so fuck him and his movie.
I'm not a fan of Card's political opinions either but its the studios movie, its Summit studios, its Lionsgate, its Harrison Ford, its Viola Davis and its not just his movie . There are hundreds maybe thousands involved in its production

The hardline wacky political crap in California is just nuts,
the hardline gay community won't just be boycotting Orson Scott Card,
they will be boycotting Ben Kingsley, KR Clements, Robert Chartoff, Gavin Hood, Viola Davis, Harrison Ford and hundreds of sound engineers, hundreds of visual fx artists, set designers, and no doubt boycotting hundreds of others who stood up for gay rights

I listen to funk and hip-hop artsist, guys who were on coke, assaulted people, were DUI, had illegal firearm possesion, shot at cops, went to jail many times....however I will still listen to their art because art is just that, its not their political opinion or their life. Same with Richard Wagner he lived with fascism all around him during the German Nazi era, however Wagner's music was just music and people can listen to it today without being accused of supporting fascism.

Orson Scott Cards stupid opinion is just that....its just his stupid opinion
and it does not reflect the opinion of the whole studio or the hundreds of others who worked on the movie

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Old July 10 2013, 08:48 AM   #105
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

TheMasterOfOrion wrote: View Post
Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
I can separate the artist from the art.
Can you really?
Yes. My main deserve to not see the movie is lack of interest.
TheMasterOfOrion wrote: View Post
Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
But Card is a whiny little bitch, so fuck him and his movie.
I'm not a fan of Card's political opinions either but its the studios movie, its Summit studios, its Lionsgate, its Harrison Ford, its Viola Davis and its not just his movie . There are hundreds maybe thousands involved in its production

The hardline wacky political crap in California is just nuts,
the hardline gay community won't just be boycotting Orson Scott Card,
they will be boycotting Ben Kingsley, KR Clements, Robert Chartoff, Gavin Hood, Viola Davis, Harrison Ford and hundreds of sound engineers, hundreds of visual fx artists, set designers, and no doubt boycotting hundreds of others who stood up for gay rights

I listen to funk and hip-hop artsist, guys who were on coke, assaulted people, were DUI, had illegal firearm possesion, shot at cops, went to jail many times....however I will still listen to their art because art is just that, its not their political opinion or their life. Same with Richard Wagner he lived with fascism all around him during the German Nazi era, however Wagner's music was just music and people can listen to it today without being accused of supporting fascism.

Orson Scott Cards stupid opinion is just that....its just his stupid opinion
and it does not reflect the opinion of the whole studio or the hundreds of others who worked on the movie
I don't care. I have no desire to see the movie, I don't care if my brother starred in it.
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