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Old July 13 2013, 07:14 PM   #421
DalekJim
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Sindatur wrote: View Post
So, if a woman is raped in an alley and beaten to a bloody pulp and put into a coma, the rapist should be able to go to the hospital, and claim to be the woman's lover and be granted full access, just like someone who's been married for 20 years?
Mate, seriously.. what the hell? How does your brain come up with these scenarios?
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Old July 13 2013, 07:15 PM   #422
Nagisa Furukawa
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Sindatur wrote: View Post
So, if a woman is raped in an alley and beaten to a bloody pulp and put into a coma, the rapist should be able to go to the hospital, and claim to be the woman's lover and be granted full access, just like someone who's been married for 20 years? Isn't that kinda dangerous for the patient?

And no, I'm not suggesting they know the man is actually the rapist, I'm saying he could simply pose as her lover, with no back up, and the hospital wouldn't know any different, because everyone should be treated the same, so, there is no method of judging someone's legitimacy
WTF are you talking about?

If you go a few pages back, I said I think hospital visitation rights should be an individual case-by-case basis and an individual's medical record should say who they want to admit, be it their lover, their favorite uncle, their platonic best friend since childhood, whomever. I'm against one-size-fits-all "It MUST only be blood or contract-signed romantic partners!" hospital visitation rights, but that has nothing to do with the ridiculously over-the-top hypothetical you suggested. I don't think anyone should just be able to visit someone in the hospital, but nor do I think there should be blanket "These are the only people who can come for everyone!" rules either.
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Old July 13 2013, 07:23 PM   #423
Sindatur
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Nagisa Furukawa wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
So, if a woman is raped in an alley and beaten to a bloody pulp and put into a coma, the rapist should be able to go to the hospital, and claim to be the woman's lover and be granted full access, just like someone who's been married for 20 years? Isn't that kinda dangerous for the patient?

And no, I'm not suggesting they know the man is actually the rapist, I'm saying he could simply pose as her lover, with no back up, and the hospital wouldn't know any different, because everyone should be treated the same, so, there is no method of judging someone's legitimacy
WTF are you talking about?

If you go a few pages back, I said I think hospital visitation rights should be an individual case-by-case basis and an individual's medical record should say who they want to admit, be it their lover, their favorite uncle, their platonic best friend since childhood, whomever. I'm against one-size-fits-all "It MUST only be blood or contract-signed romantic partners!" hospital visitation rights, but that has nothing to do with the ridiculously over-the-top hypothetical you suggested. I don't think anyone should just be able to visit someone in the hospital, but nor do I think there should be blanket "These are the only people who can come for everyone!" rules either.
How do you prove it? Marriage is that contract. If someone is not willing to marry, why are they willing to sign a different contract that marries them? How is that other Contract different and better?

There are times with Medical Conditions you must prove concretely you have the rights you need to demand. Blood Family can override any Contract, but, actual marriage. If you don't have Family or Spouse proven who can vouch for visitors, it's a risk to take anyone else's word for something. In my scenario, the patient has been unconscious/in a coma since before admittance. How do you tell the difference between the rapist and the real lover?
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Old July 13 2013, 07:30 PM   #424
Nagisa Furukawa
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Sindatur wrote: View Post
How do you prove it? Marriage is that contract. If someone is willing to marry, why are they willing to sign a different contract that marries them? How is that other Contract different and better?

There are times with Medical Conditions you must prove concretely you have the rights you need to demand. Blood Family can override any Contract, but, actual marriage.
I honestly, genuinely don't know what you're talking about here.

In times of medical emergencies, the patient's medical record should specify (through setting up ahead of time with their insurance company or whatever) who they want to visit them in the hospital. That may include blood, that may include their spouse, or that may not. If a person specifies that when they're in the hospital, he or she doesn't want family (who the person hasn't talked to in 10 years) or spouse (who the person has been separated from for 3 years) to visit him or her but his or her closest friends or whoever, they should absolutely have that right. Blood and marriage should not get priority as a "one-size-fits-all" solution; who-gets-to-visit-you-in-the-hospital should be taken on an individual basis based on what the one-day-will-be-sick person wants.

I really have no idea what you're talking about in terms of contracts and the like.
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Old July 13 2013, 07:35 PM   #425
nightwind1
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Then how do you resolve disputes?
What?
Let's speak slow for the dull-witted:

"T h e n h o w d o y o u r e s o l v e d i s p u t e s ?"
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Old July 13 2013, 07:41 PM   #426
Sindatur
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Nagisa Furukawa wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
How do you prove it? Marriage is that contract. If someone is willing to marry, why are they willing to sign a different contract that marries them? How is that other Contract different and better?

There are times with Medical Conditions you must prove concretely you have the rights you need to demand. Blood Family can override any Contract, but, actual marriage.
I honestly, genuinely don't know what you're talking about here.

In times of medical emergencies, the patient's medical record should specify (through setting up ahead of time with their insurance company or whatever) who they want to visit them in the hospital. That may include blood, that may include their spouse, or that may not. If a person specifies that when they're in the hospital, he or she doesn't want family (who the person hasn't talked to in 10 years) or spouse (who the person has been separated from for 3 years) to visit him or her but his or her closest friends or whoever, they should absolutely have that right. Blood and marriage should not get priority as a "one-size-fits-all" solution; who-gets-to-visit-you-in-the-hospital should be taken on an individual basis based on what the one-day-will-be-sick person wants.

I really have no idea what you're talking about in terms of contracts and the like.
You don't honestly believe there wouldn't be a large population who didn't have everyone set up in advance on their medical chart? For 20-somethings 6 months can have a lifetime of changes, Healthy folks may not visit the Doctor for 5 or more years, how often is the average person hospitalized? Your Doctor doesn't update your Hospital records, only your office visit files. You get admitted into the Emergency room, they're worried about your care, not finding out who's approved.

<Sigh> There is nothing wrong with Marriage except the exclusivity of it and Tax benefits. If you choose to make another person your other half, your should be able to bind it legally, so everyone sees you as one in your dealings, if you don't want it that's fine.
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Old July 13 2013, 07:41 PM   #427
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

nightwind1 wrote: View Post
"T h e n h o w d o y o u r e s o l v e d i s p u t e s ?"
What a thoughtful contribution.
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Old July 13 2013, 07:45 PM   #428
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

sonak wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
not all arguments that say that there's a reason that heterosexual marriage should be privileged by the government are incoherent, hypocritical, or based on prejudice. You could say that the whole REASON that marriage involves government benefits was because government wanted to encourage stable relationships that lead to procreation. And the "not all heterosexual marriages lead to procreation, so that's b.s." no more invalidates the CONCEPT of why governments do it than the "some people use spoons to hang from their nose as a trick" means that spoons aren't meant to be eating utensils.

I don't really have a dog in the fight. I'm not gay, I support gay rights and I think society's verdict on gay marriage is in, I just don't think that ALL arguments against gay marriage are a result of bigotry.

(although to be clear, a lot are. OSC's certainly seems to be.)
That's fascinating. It has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote, but fascinating nonetheless.
your post and his addressed marriage and government benefits as a result of it. It is not my problem if reading comprehension is a weakness of yours.
Well, since you're such a master of reading comprehension, I'm sure you will kindly point out the portions of my post you quoted that mention bigotry or prejudice, or anything talking about heterosexual marriages leading to procreation and the government promoting that. You were bringing up and arguing against issues I didn't even address.

My post was focused on the fact that there are 1,138 benefits, rights, and privileges associated with marriage in this country, that saying that same-sex couples have exactly the same rights as heterosexual couples is flat out wrong, and that it's incredibly naive to suggest that government should have no role in enforcing the legal contract of marriage and regulating the benefits that result from that.
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Old July 13 2013, 07:56 PM   #429
Set Harth
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
I'm for completely abolishing marriage as a legal institution
Which is not going to happen.

Thus, in practice, your position equates to maintaining the status quo of unequal treatment of heterosexuals and homosexuals.
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Old July 13 2013, 08:14 PM   #430
Lord Prancer The 5th
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

I'm a militant secularist and a strong marriage equality proponent, and I'm still seeing Ender's Game. Sue me.
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Old July 13 2013, 08:17 PM   #431
sonak
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post

That's fascinating. It has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote, but fascinating nonetheless.
your post and his addressed marriage and government benefits as a result of it. It is not my problem if reading comprehension is a weakness of yours.
Well, since you're such a master of reading comprehension, I'm sure you will kindly point out the portions of my post you quoted that mention bigotry or prejudice, or anything talking about heterosexual marriages leading to procreation and the government promoting that. You were bringing up and arguing against issues I didn't even address.

My post was focused on the fact that there are 1,138 benefits, rights, and privileges associated with marriage in this country, that saying that same-sex couples have exactly the same rights as heterosexual couples is flat out wrong, and that it's incredibly naive to suggest that government should have no role in enforcing the legal contract of marriage and regulating the benefits that result from that.

I wasn't using the quote function in that instance to argue against either of you. I was just using it as a sort of jumping off point from where the discussion was. As if to say, "hey, here's what you were writing about, here's my view."

it's the quote function, not the argue function. I wasn't using it there to argue, merely offer my opinion as part of the discussion.
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Old July 13 2013, 09:18 PM   #432
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Mach5 wrote: View Post
I'm a militant secularist and a strong marriage equality proponent, and I'm still seeing Ender's Game. Sue me.
See you in court!
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Old July 13 2013, 10:45 PM   #433
sojourner
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Mach5 wrote: View Post
I'm a militant secularist and a strong marriage equality proponent, and I'm still seeing Ender's Game. Sue me.
Are you rich? Otherwise it's not worth my time.
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Old July 14 2013, 12:28 AM   #434
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post

If bigots will learn to keep their mouth shut about their bigoted views for fear of being shunned by the decent people, the world will be a better place.

So you "don't care" about Card denying gay people their basic rights, advocating their incarceration in camps, and even threatening armed rebellion against the government if it doesn't play along with his bigoted views, but it "terrifies" you that people speak against him and choose not to give him money.

That's a... peculiar point of view and I think it tells us what are your priorities.
I think you really misunderstood what I was trying to say so lets try and simplify it.

"When people can't speak their views no matter how wrong their thoughts are in the eyes of other people it is bad because then instead of a proper societal dialogue they will just hide these thoughts and make no mistake they won't cease to exist even if no one speaks about them in the open."

"I don't personally care about Card's views" = I don't agree with his views and thoughts (guess that really was hard to infer from it..not that i'm a native speaker of english either so that might explain it a bit..)

The point that I was trying to make was that it is better if things are talked about in the open and that a culture of open communication without prejudices or blatant dismissals of dialogue is encouraged.

Different cultures are different, equality is something that I don't think most of the world is ready to really achieve yet..I wish we were, there are a lot of things in this world that need working on (gender and sexuality wise) but to even arrive at that point there needs to be a real development in the human condition in the social platform.

What I write and say should tell you that I advocate a world where anyone can speak what is on their mind and not be condemned instantly by existing cultural restrictions(instead they should be acknowledged and offered a dialogue that comes from another point of view..and it should be a conversation and not a battle of words).

Last edited by Whitepaper; July 14 2013 at 12:29 AM. Reason: removed a "quote" word artefact.
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Old July 14 2013, 12:31 AM   #435
Guy Gardener
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

But you put a lean on his wages, taking 60 percent of bugger all till he dies? That shit is supervillian evil.

Although if you're taking 60 percent and his exwife is taking 60 percent... Who takes net and who takes gross? Unless you're both insistent that you take gross and Mach5 has to borrow from a loan shark %20 of his wages to dole out to you two, until you claim that any money he borrows is yet further wages you both want to cut %60 off.

Seriously, the exwife racket is very profitable but if 11 seasons of Murder She Wrote proved anything, the mortality rate is banapantscrazyballs.
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