RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,425
Posts: 5,506,824
Members: 25,130
Currently online: 582
Newest member: wilpatbenthe3

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 13 2013, 06:04 PM   #406
DalekJim
Fleet Captain
 
DalekJim's Avatar
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

BillJ wrote: View Post
Have you ever been married?
I evidently never plan to marry.

Sindatur wrote: View Post
However, in a long term relationship, where you build a life together, maybe raise kids or buy a home and car and business, you need to involve the Legal system which is Government
I agree, I just don't see why married couples should be treated better by the government than non-married in regards to all those activities. I'd like to have kids and a home with one or more partners I'm committed to, I just don't wish to marry.
DalekJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 13 2013, 06:08 PM   #407
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Sindatur wrote: View Post
However, in a long term relationship, where you build a life together, maybe raise kids or buy a home and car and business, you need to involve the Legal system which is Government
Which is exactly why this is an important issue. Much of the worlds economy is built on credit, it's easier to get credit and buy large ticket items when married.

DalekJim wrote: View Post

I evidently never plan to marry.
Which is your choice. But I think it's a bit early in your life to say "never".
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 13 2013, 06:10 PM   #408
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
I agree, I just don't see why married couples should be treated better by the government than non-married in regards to all those activities. I'd like to have kids and a home with one or more partners I'm committed to, I just don't wish to marry.
It's not just about the government. Lenders believe there is a better foundation for repayment when lending to a married couple, especially if both work.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 13 2013, 06:12 PM   #409
DalekJim
Fleet Captain
 
DalekJim's Avatar
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

BillJ wrote: View Post
Which is your choice. But I think it's a bit early in your life to say "never".
Possible, that's why I used the word "plan". Every married couple I've known get married during my lifetime is now divorced though and I just don't think it's for me. I think I'm gonna die a lone wolf .
DalekJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 13 2013, 06:16 PM   #410
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Have you ever been married?
I evidently never plan to marry.

Sindatur wrote: View Post
However, in a long term relationship, where you build a life together, maybe raise kids or buy a home and car and business, you need to involve the Legal system which is Government
I agree, I just don't see why married couples should be treated better by the government than non-married in regards to all those activities. I'd like to have kids and a home with one or more partners I'm committed to, I just don't wish to marry.
One more time, and then I'm done with this.

if you take Tax Benefits out of it, and you allow anyone to marry (A Government backed Contract between the two of you spelling out you are committed to each other and grant each the rights you would grant to the most important person in the world to you) how is that any different than A Contract (Which would be backed the Government) between the parties? Why are you for one, but, not the other, to me they look exactly the same, because you keep saying "laws" which means you really don't mean you want Government out of it.

Why is your Contract preferable. You would have to go through exactly the same amount of effort for the Marriage Contract or the "Commitment" contract
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 13 2013, 06:17 PM   #411
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Which is your choice. But I think it's a bit early in your life to say "never".
Possible, that's why I used the word "plan". Every married couple I've known get married during my lifetime is now divorced though and I just don't think it's for me. I think I'm gonna die a lone wolf .
It's easy to feel that way, especially when you're in you early- to mid-20's (which is kind of what I peg your age as being).

I just think is dangerous to think because there's a social apparatus that I don't use, that the apparatus itself is useless.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 13 2013, 06:24 PM   #412
DalekJim
Fleet Captain
 
DalekJim's Avatar
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Why are you for one, but, not the other, to me they look exactly the same, because you keep saying "laws" which means you really don't mean you want Government out of it.
To re-iterate, and I really am honestly trying my best to explain, I don't think married couples should get special rights, or be recognised as superior or more legitimate by the government.

I think the government should still be involved in custody battles, property ownership disputes and all the stuff we've previously mentioned, I just don't think married couples should be treated better than non-married couples. That is my view and I don't see why it inspires so much loathing as from my point of view, it sincerely strikes me as the fairest way of doing things.

BillJ wrote: View Post
It's easy to feel that way, especially when you're in you early- to mid-20's (which is kind of what I peg your age as being).
That's about right. I also live in Britain where the divorce rate is incredibly high. As I said, with no hint of exaggeration, I've been to a shitload of weddings in my lifetime. Absolutely none of those marriages still exists.
DalekJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 13 2013, 06:30 PM   #413
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post

To re-iterate, and I really am honestly trying my best to explain, I don't think married couples should get special rights, or be recognised as superior or more legitimate by the government.
I think you're just flat wrong here, honestly. I don't know of any "special rights" (beyond direct estate rights/control of medical care for an incapacitated spouse) we have received and I don't think the government sees us as any more superior or legitimate than the unmarried couple next door.

The tax breaks are nice, but they wouldn't break us if they didn't exist.

Your just grossly misinformed about marriage I believe.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 13 2013, 06:34 PM   #414
Ryan8bit
Commodore
 
Ryan8bit's Avatar
 
Location: St. Paul, MN
Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
I don't think married couples should get special rights, or be recognised as superior or more legitimate by the government.
Married couples only get privileges, not rights, and they aren't recognized as superior, that's ridiculous. They aren't recognized as any more "legitimate" than somebody who has a driver's license.
Ryan8bit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 13 2013, 06:38 PM   #415
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
Why are you for one, but, not the other, to me they look exactly the same, because you keep saying "laws" which means you really don't mean you want Government out of it.
To re-iterate, and I really am honestly trying my best to explain, I don't think married couples should get special rights, or be recognised as superior or more legitimate by the government.

I think the government should still be involved in custody battles, property ownership disputes and all the stuff we've previously mentioned, I just don't think married couples should be treated better than non-married couples. That is my view and I don't see why it inspires so much loathing as from my point of view, it sincerely strikes me as the fairest way of doing things.
You are making no sense whatsoever, if everyone is allowed to be married, and there are no tax benefits, and the Government still enforces marriage that is exactly what you are saying when you say you want Government out of and it should be a Contract between two people. Marriage already is exactly what you want, except Gays (And multiple Partners and different species) are banned from the club, and the ones allowed in the club get tax benefits.

You're not for Government out of marriage, you're for getting rid of the Tax benefits and allowing everyone to join the club. If Marriage didn't have the Tax benefits and allowed anyone to marry, it makes absolutely no sense to create a different contract, other than so you can say you're against marriage

@Ryan8Bit, The Right of Medical Determination and visitation and the Right to Co-Ownership of the Marital Estate as well as any children are absolutely Rights, not privileges. Their claim on those Rights is the institution/Contract of Marriage
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 13 2013, 06:44 PM   #416
DalekJim
Fleet Captain
 
DalekJim's Avatar
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Sindataur wrote:
You're not for Government out of marriage, you're for getting rid of the Tax benefits and allowing everyone to join the club.
I'm for completely abolishing marriage as a legal institution, as I don't think they should be part of the government's business. I've justified my views to excruciating detail throughout this thread and am now pretty burned out on this discussion. I might return, but right now I wanna get some writing progress done, as I've been pretty lazy today lurking on here and discussing something I never even plan on doing.
DalekJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 13 2013, 06:52 PM   #417
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Sindataur wrote:
You're not for Government out of marriage, you're for getting rid of the Tax benefits and allowing everyone to join the club.
I'm for completely abolishing marriage as a legal institution, as I don't think they should be part of the government's business. I've justified my views to excruciating detail throughout this thread and am now pretty burned out on this discussion. I might return, but right now I wanna get some writing progress done, as I've been pretty lazy today lurking on here and discussing something I never even plan on doing.
You keep saying you want something different, but, everything you say you want out, you want in, and haven't answered what you want different, other than wanting Government out of it, which you don't want, because you keep talking about Government's role in your alternative.
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 13 2013, 06:57 PM   #418
DalekJim
Fleet Captain
 
DalekJim's Avatar
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Sindatur wrote: View Post
You keep saying you want something different, but, everything you say you want out, you want in, and haven't answered what you want different, other than wanting Government out of it, which you don't want, because you keep talking about Government's role in your alternative.
I don't want any alternative. I just don't want government legislated marriage. I don't think two people should gain new titles and privileges for performing a romantic ritual. I find that unfair and archaic, whether they be straight or gay. These aren't rights I want taken away, they're special privileges that wouldn't exist in a fair world.

Marriage is a promise two people make to each other. It shouldn't have anything to do with the law or taxes.
DalekJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 13 2013, 06:58 PM   #419
Nagisa Furukawa
Commander
 
Nagisa Furukawa's Avatar
 
Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Sindatur wrote: View Post
No, of course it's not OK, but Marriage is a method of declaring you are committed and what's yours is theirs, there are times when you need absolute proof. You can't just make it a free for all when any old Tom Dick or Mary comes in off the street and makes claims. It doesn't need to be called Marriage, but, there has to be some undeniable Legality for the person you've chosen to give those rights to, if people don't avail themselves of it (When not locked out) how can they prove it?
Sorry, I see no problem making it a free for all when any old Tom, Dick or Mary can come in and say whatever they want, whether they're married or joined or symbiotically bonded in the light of R'hllor, so long as the government doesn't then say, "Okay, because you've found a romantic partner, we're going to give you shit we're not giving straight people or romantic couples that haven't done a ceremony."

BillJ wrote: View Post
Here is how I see it: you tap dance because you don't believe homosexuals deserve the same treatment under current laws. You obfuscate because you know there's absolutely no chance that current marriage laws will ever be repealed.

So you can claim to take the moral high-ground while being comfortable in the knowledge that some people are denied rights that are available to others.


Noooo, it can't be because he actually believes what he says; it's those damn ulterior motives again...

So. Do they deserve the same treatment under current laws?
He is refusing to answer you that bluntly because he doesn't think the "current laws" are fair. He thinks all romantic couples, heterosexual or homosexual, should deserve the same treatment: to be able to love one another as they see fit but without the government giving them benefits they don't give to non-married people. How is that not abundantly clear from his posts?
__________________
I am the one who guided you this far.
Nagisa Furukawa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 13 2013, 07:12 PM   #420
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Nagisa Furukawa wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
No, of course it's not OK, but Marriage is a method of declaring you are committed and what's yours is theirs, there are times when you need absolute proof. You can't just make it a free for all when any old Tom Dick or Mary comes in off the street and makes claims. It doesn't need to be called Marriage, but, there has to be some undeniable Legality for the person you've chosen to give those rights to, if people don't avail themselves of it (When not locked out) how can they prove it?
Sorry, I see no problem making it a free for all when any old Tom, Dick or Mary can come in and say whatever they want, whether they're married or joined or symbiotically bonded in the light of R'hllor, so long as the government doesn't then say, "Okay, because you've found a romantic partner, we're going to give you shit we're not giving straight people or romantic couples that haven't done a ceremony."
So, if a woman is raped in an alley and beaten to a bloody pulp and put into a coma, the rapist should be able to go to the hospital, and claim to be the woman's lover and be granted full access, just like someone who's been married for 20 years? Isn't that kinda dangerous for the patient?

And no, I'm not suggesting they know the man is actually the rapist, I'm saying he could simply pose as her lover, with no back up, and the hospital wouldn't know any different, because everyone should be treated the same, so, there is no method of judging someone's legitimacy
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:22 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.