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Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

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Old July 12 2013, 09:39 PM   #316
Professor Zoom
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
And many of the greats actively campaigned for slavery/unthinking obedience to king&church/racism/etc.
And the ones who didn't most definitely made their views into actions in day to day life.
Kinda hard to affect the wallet of those that aren't alive, don't ya think?

And again, I'm beginning to wonder, if he was campaigning against the rights of blacks and latinos, would there be such a long discussion? Are gay rights LESS than those of blacks and latinos? Because it feels like people are making excuses... "well, if stopped reading everyone you disagreed with..." But, it's not about his views, but his actions.

I've also seen people say, "gay marriage is coming sooner or later, what's the big deal." In 1950, would you tell a black man, "Hey, chill, civil rights are coming sooner or later..."?

Card is obviously free to write and say whatever he wants, I'll defend him to that end. But, seriously, I think if he was fighting against what we would consider settled issues, I don't think he would have as many defenders.
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Old July 12 2013, 09:42 PM   #317
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
There's a really good other reason not to support either the book or the movie; the fact that it supports child soldiering indirectly by having Ender Wiggin and his pals be fighting a war. Why can't the Earth Government or whatever it's called just have a planetary draft, and get the troops it needs to fight the war that way? Why involve children?
The International Fleet didn't need soldiers. They had plenty of soldiers, all of whom were deployed decades ago because they didn't have FTL and it takes that long to even get to the enemy planets.

What they needed were generals; strategists who uinderstood who to wage war in a three-dimensional gravityless and frictionless environment. They didn't want some kid with an AK-47. They could get plenty of those. Battle School would have been a waste.

What they wanted was a juvenile MacArthur, someone they could put in command of their entire fleet and who could win.

They say that todays generals always prepare for yesterday's war. They picked kids at the age of 5 and took them up into space so that they could become acclimated to a zero gravity environment and learn how to maneuver in one to a degree that no adult born and raised on Earth would have been able to. They give those kids very little training or guidance so that they would be forced to work out strategies and tactics themselves and wouldn't be bogged down in old two-dimensional Earthbound modes of thought.

They wanted to reinvent the wheel in terms of military strategy, so they used kids who didn't even know what strategy looked like and let them work it out on their own.

And none of them even saw combat. They just gave orders from a safe and secure command facility.
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Old July 12 2013, 09:55 PM   #318
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Lionsgate has issued a statement of their own in response to Card. They say, basically, "We're committed to LGBT rights, so whatever your beef with Orson Scott Card, it's nothing to do with us."
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Old July 12 2013, 10:02 PM   #319
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Is this a joke?

Edit_XYZ comes in, declares his opinion to be fact, then lectures others over doing the same, decrying their inability to produce evidence to back up their claims while providing none himself, and ignoring the evidence provided by Samuel. Quite interesting.

Even ignoring the lopsided nature of that "debate", I find the demand for justifications baffling. Have since this whole discussion began, and every time there is a similar discussion.

There are LOTS and LOTS of movies, books, TV shows, video games... Choosing not to spend your money on a particular one happens all the time, for a variety of reasons. If someone just doesn't like Card, as a person, and for that reason, chooses not to go see the movie... then, ok. That's all the "justification" they need.

The argument against it comes from some kind of weird assumption that you SHOULD go see the movie, and if you're not going to, WE NEED TO KNOW WHY! NO, THOSE REASONS AREN'T GOOD ENOUGH!

I mean... what?

Equally baffling is the idea that Card actively putting his time and money toward further attempts to deny gay people their rights is somehow unlikely... despite the fact that he sits on the board of an anti-gay hate organization and has directed large chunks of his time and money to said attempts in the past.

Most baffling of all is the idea that people shouldn't be choosing to not partake in the work of some artists with whom they disagree without making sure they are not partaking in the work of ANY artists with whom they disagree. Firstly: it's not practical. If you spent the amount of time required to make sure you knew every last facet of the political and social beliefs of every artist whose work you might consume, well... you'd never have time to actually consume any of the work.

Something is brought to our attention. "Card is a bigot who works to deny gay people their rights". Well, I didn't know that. Guess I won't support him anymore. This isn't complicated.

Author B is also a bigot. But I don't know it, because I haven't scrutinized their life - I didn't scrutinize Card's life either, but I didn't have to, it's become common knowledge that he is a bigot. I didn't go out of my way to study anyone's beliefs or political views; the knowledge that Card is a bigot and a douchebag was dropped in my lap without me having to DO anything. Thus, I stop supporting him. So Author B "gets away with it", and still gets my money, until and unless I learn more about him somehow (assuming I CAN: not every artist even makes their political views available for scrutiny in the first place!). That's a shame, but that's life. You are GOING to spend money on some things that are associated with people who hold beliefs you find offensive or immoral or whatever. It's GOING to happen. That's the nature of the modern world.

Therefore, when we are presented with an opportunity to STOP supporting someone we KNOW holds beliefs we find reprehensible, and who acts on those beliefs to try and do real harm to real people, it's bad to do so? Hypocritical? Makes no sense.

Since always consuming art ONLY produced by those who agree with you 100% is in fact completely impossible, the argument would seem to be: "If you're going to boycott Card for his beliefs, you should boycott everyone whose beliefs you disagree with. Since this is utterly impossible to do while still consuming any art at all, if you boycott Card and consume any art at all, you are a hypocrite."

And frankly, degree also matters. Which issue is at hand also matters. Card is a bigot and a douchebag, who

A) actively works and spends money to promote his bigotry, rather than just holding those views

B) is a bigot and a douchebag about something that I happen to feel very strongly about.

If either A or B were different, I might not be inclined to boycott him. Note that I'm not saying that if A or B were different, I absolutely wouldn't boycott him - I said MIGHT, and it would depend on the circumstances, and no, I'm not going to list every possible permutation and whether or not I would boycott him in that circumstance. It's a case-by-case thing.

Note also that I'm not saying "You MUST boycott Card, or you are a bigot yourself" or anything of the sort. If you DON'T boycott artists you disagree with, no matter what; if you choose to separate completely the artist from his actions outside his work, then hey, sure, fine. I'm not saying that's wrong. But choosing to stop supporting someone who you find reprehensible requires no more justification than "I'm choosing to stop supporting this person because I find them reprehensible." Period.

hyzmarca wrote: View Post
...
Sweet muster, intersexual swamp?

That's pathetic. His views on men and women, and on sex in general, seem to be no less insane than his views on homosexuality.
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Old July 12 2013, 11:33 PM   #320
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Intersexual swamps make me wet.
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Old July 13 2013, 12:00 AM   #321
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Really? They only get me as far as clammy... What's your secret?
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Old July 13 2013, 12:17 AM   #322
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

I don't have sex in swamps anymore, period. Too yucky.
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Old July 13 2013, 12:33 AM   #323
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Really? They only get me as far as clammy... What's your secret?
Gay crocodiles. Lots of them.
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Old July 13 2013, 12:47 AM   #324
Guy Gardener
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Set Harth wrote: View Post
I don't have sex in swamps anymore, period. Too yucky.
Swampthing fell in love with Heather Locklear in Swampthing II in a swamp.
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Old July 13 2013, 12:54 AM   #325
Lt. Uhura-Brown
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Then "please don't be a bigot".
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Old July 13 2013, 01:17 AM   #326
sojourner
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
I don't have sex in swamps anymore, period. Too yucky.
Swampthing fell in love with Heather Locklear in Swampthing II in a swamp.
I prefer his scene with Adrienne Barbeau in the first one.
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Old July 13 2013, 04:37 AM   #327
nightwind1
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

sojourner wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
I don't have sex in swamps anymore, period. Too yucky.
Swampthing fell in love with Heather Locklear in Swampthing II in a swamp.
I prefer his scene with Adrienne Barbeau in the first one.
I prefer any scene in any movie with Adrienne Barbeau!
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Old July 13 2013, 08:00 AM   #328
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

nightwind1 wrote: View Post
I prefer any scene in any movie with Adrienne Barbeau!
QFT!!!

...and I'm in between about this. I loathe Card's opinions but it wouldn't categorically stop me from seeing the movie. I might go on $5 Tuesdays so they get less lol.

And of course anyone can go see it as they like, or not... it's called freedom of choice, and in this regard it still exists.
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Old July 13 2013, 08:42 AM   #329
Guy Gardener
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

I have the Nazi made Titanic movie on my hard drive.

No plans to watch it, but it seems like something I should have on hand for just in case.
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Old July 13 2013, 09:00 AM   #330
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

I saw a documentary about it, but have never seen it...
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