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Old July 12 2013, 08:10 PM   #301
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Not dismissed. Proved to be quite unreliable as a method of gaining wealth. There's a large difference.
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Old July 12 2013, 08:13 PM   #302
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

like how sales of lord of the rings books didn't increase after the films came out. oh wait, they did.

just stating you don't agree is not even slightly proof.

authors would never want their work turned into succesful films and possibly interest some new readers. they hate recieving royalties too. yeah right.
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Old July 12 2013, 08:15 PM   #303
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

just stating you don't agree is not even slightly proof.
Except I also said WHY I don't agree.
You know, arguments - as opposed to unsupported dictums such as the ones you posted.

PS - Already covered in my previous posts Lord of the rings and similar events.
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Old July 12 2013, 08:20 PM   #304
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Samuel Walters
The specific method of payment is quite relevant.
If he was already payed, the movie or sequels will not give him material leverage.
And the chain from 'if the movie is succesful' to 'maybe his books will sell better (assuming he even still gets money from those books)' is so tenuous as not to be satisfactory as an explanation - especially given that you have 0 facts about Card's finances. It really seems to be more of a justification.
You don't know a whole lot about the book industry, do you? About how important it is for authors to not only have their books optioned for film, to not only have the films completed, but also for the films to be successful.

Do you have any idea what happened to the sales of Hunger Games, Life of Pi The Invention of Hugo Cabret and World War Z (to name a few of the most recent ones), when the films were successful - both critically and at the Box Office? Heck, look what Game of Thrones has done for sales of George R.R. Martin's books. Divergent is an upcoming filmed based on a very successful book that will soon see a movie - if the film is a hit, the book's sales, as well as its sequels, will skyrocket. If it fails, the books will still sell well - but not nearly as well.

Why? In large part because book stores, like B&N, will have movie tie-in promotions. They want to ride the success of films, too. The Hobbit, The Lorax, Hunger Games, World War Z, and so on, have all had prominent displays over the past couple of years. If the movies are a success, if more movies are made, those displays go back up. Just wait until the autumn. I guarantee you'll see prominent displays for Catching Fire.

When films don't work particularly well - such as what happened to the His Dark Materia series (Golden Compass), or the Dark is Rising (The Seeker) or Eragon - no further films are made. Heck, even the Narnia is struggling to have other books made into films. Do you not think those authors (or their estates) would be better off if the films had succeeded?

If you don't think that the future sales of a book adapted for film are related to the film's success, then you're not paying close enough attention. In fact, Ender's Game is currently in Amazon's top 100 books sales for 2013 - after not appearing there in previous years. Why? Raised profile from the upcoming film and promotions by booksellers both online and in brick and mortar stores.

And, of course, the whole point here is that - with the rare exception of a huge advanced for a flopped book - authors make the lion's share of their money off the royalties on book sales. In many of these cases, the authors are already doing very well, even without the increased sales from the films. But there's no way one can reasonably deny that strong film performances have an explicitly positive effect on book sales.
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Old July 12 2013, 08:22 PM   #305
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...s-Tolkien.html
Only one thing entices Christopher Reuel Tolkien from his seclusion: the literary legacy of his father, the author J R R Tolkien.

That legacy is worth more than £10 million in book sales in Britain alone this year, largely thanks to the cinematic adaptation of his father's literary classic, The Lord of The Rings trilogy.
proof

XYZ wheres yours? or are you going to insist your opinion is fact again?
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Old July 12 2013, 08:24 PM   #306
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Money made or not made does not come into my boycott at all. I care little about Card's wealth or lack of wealth. I simply dislike him immensely and don't to watch or read anything that was created by him. It would annoy me to watch this movie.

And I am quite capable of disliking artists etc from the past. Most notably Dante Gabriel Rossetti - I wouldn't any picture of his in my house no matter how well it was painted.
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Old July 12 2013, 08:28 PM   #307
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Except I also said WHY I don't agree.
You know, arguments - as opposed to unsupported dictums such as the ones you posted.
He would have been paid in some way for the right to make the movie (Maybe a flat fee or maybe a percentage of the take, or maybe both). If this movie makes a ton of money, the Studio will want to make another one, and a new payment deal will be made to make another movie (Depending upon how well this movie does, it could be much more lucrative for a sequel). They also may be interested in buying the rights to another of his works, which, once again, is another payday, and someone else may want to get in on the action and buy rights to another work. After the money wears down for this round, the Studio may re-up their rights with another payday.

All of this, if the movie does well, will almost certainly add to his book sales, maybe only a couple new book sales, but, likely more than just a couple if it does well, just like as noted, LotR surged in sales after the Movies. You get millions of folks going to the movie, if even 100 of those people decide to buy the books, they're not likely to stop at just the first one, if they went to the effort to get the first one, so, that's 100 times his entire collection as a possibility.

As far as Bigots of old also being "The Masters", they're dead, they're no longer profiting. They are no longer able to spend the money we spend on their product in order to continue their war against their favorite minority group they want to take rights away from. Completely different from someone who is still living, and still engaging in spending money that he earns from his art to conduct War against Gay Rights.

If the movie does really well, Card stands to make 100s of thousands of dollars or more in the future. I don't know about you, but, I have a pretty decent paying job, and it would take me years to earn Hundreds of thousands of dollars. If the movie bombs, that's it, they won't be coming back to him giving him more money to adapt more of his product.
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Old July 12 2013, 08:29 PM   #308
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Samuel Walters
In many cases, authors receive a pay for their work and that's the end of it. Do you even know whether Card still receives royalties from Ender's game? Well, I guess there's a chance he does.

And yes, in blockbuster movies cases, the books sold better afterwards. But these are very rare exceptions. How many movies/series based on books were produced to give your sample of ~a dozen? But I guess there's a chance this movie will be one of these blockbusters (it's highly unadvisable to bet on this, though).

And I guess there's a chance card will use the money to go on a anti-gay campaign (again, don't bet on it).


What you are saying can aptly be compared to ~'Card plays the lottery, so I'll boycott it, because there's a chance Card will win and I don't want to give him the money I used to buy a lottery ticket.'
And that's why I find your justification unconvincing.
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Old July 12 2013, 08:38 PM   #309
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Samuel Walters
In many cases, authors receive a pay for their work and that's the end of it. Do you even know whether Card still receives royalties from Ender's game? Well, I guess there's a chance he does.

And yes, in blockbuster movies cases, the books sold better afterwards. But these are very rare exceptions. How many movies/series based on books were produced to give your sample of ~a dozen? But I guess there's a chance this movie will be one of these blockbusters (it's highly unadvisable to bet on this, though).

And I guess there's a chance card will use the money to go on a anti-gay campaign (again, don't bet on it).


What you are saying can aptly be compared to ~'Card plays the lottery, so I'll boycott it, because there's a chance Card will win and I don't want to give him the money I used to buy a lottery ticket.'
And that's why I find your justification unconvincing.
There's an almost complete certainty he will spend his money to continue his Anti-Gay campaign, he is on the Board of such a group, the same group he has already been doing this with, that's what he does with his time.
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Old July 12 2013, 08:39 PM   #310
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Samuel Walters
In many cases,
citation needed, can you point to many cases?
authors receive a pay for their work and that's the end of it. Do you even know whether Card still receives royalties from Ender's game? Well, I guess there's a chance he does.

And yes, in blockbuster movies cases, the books sold better afterwards. But these are very rare exceptions.
citation needed. again.
How many movies/series based on books were produced to give your sample of ~a dozen? But I guess there's a chance this movie will be one of these blockbusters (it's highly unadvisable to bet on this, though).

And I guess there's a chance card will use the money to go on a anti-gay campaign (again, don't bet on it).


What you are saying can aptly be compared to ~'Card plays the lottery, so I'll boycott it, because there's a chance Card will win and I don't want to give him the money I used to buy a lottery ticket.'
And that's why I find your justification unconvincing.
You really don't know what you're talking about.
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Old July 12 2013, 08:39 PM   #311
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
And yes, in blockbuster movies cases, the books sold better afterwards. But these are very rare exceptions. How many movies/series based on books were produced to give your sample of ~a dozen?
What? It's not rare at all. Reissues of novels that movies are based on and movie tie-in novels are a hugely successful market. Of course not all do well, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a well-proven strategy to capitalize on the success of a film to sell related books.

I think I hear Greg Cox's bat-signal lighting up.
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Old July 12 2013, 08:47 PM   #312
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

sojourner wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Samuel Walters
In many cases,
citation needed, can you point to many cases?
authors receive a pay for their work and that's the end of it. Do you even know whether Card still receives royalties from Ender's game? Well, I guess there's a chance he does.

And yes, in blockbuster movies cases, the books sold better afterwards. But these are very rare exceptions.
citation needed. again.
First - I find it quite ironic that you request citation when you can't even be bothered to come up with anything that isn't unsupported dictums.

And, based on their posts on this forum, many trek tie-in authors make most of their money not from royalties, but from the initial pay.
Also - what's the percentage of movies that become blockbusters, sojourner?

How many movies/series based on books were produced to give your sample of ~a dozen? But I guess there's a chance this movie will be one of these blockbusters (it's highly unadvisable to bet on this, though).

And I guess there's a chance card will use the money to go on a anti-gay campaign (again, don't bet on it).

What you are saying can aptly be compared to ~'Card plays the lottery, so I'll boycott it, because there's a chance Card will win and I don't want to give him the money I used to buy a lottery ticket.'
And that's why I find your justification unconvincing.
You really don't know what you're talking about.
Given your lack of arguments, your dictums have little value.

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
And yes, in blockbuster movies cases, the books sold better afterwards. But these are very rare exceptions. How many movies/series based on books were produced to give your sample of ~a dozen?
What? It's not rare at all. Reissues of novels that movies are based on and movie tie-in novels are a hugely successful market. Of course not all do well, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a well-proven strategy to capitalize on the success of a film to sell related books.

I think I hear Greg Cox's bat-signal lighting up.
But the only way this leads to significant increases in the finances of an author is if the movie/series is hugely successful.

And the chances of this movie becoming hugely successful are small, at best.
If not for this boycotting movement, I would not have even heard of it.
BTW, it's quite probable that all the boycotting will only make the movie better known and, ultimately, increase its popularity and profits. It's even possible that Card posted his ~'don't boycott the movie', at least in part, in order to give rise to such discussions, popularising the movie.
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Old July 12 2013, 09:04 PM   #313
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Samuel Walters
In many cases, authors receive a pay for their work and that's the end of it.
Where your proof for this assertion? Unless you can prove otherwise, I'll go with the hundreds of authors with whom I've directly spoken to, or heard speak, in which they've talked about royalties they've received from their books sales (and, in some cases, from the movies produced from their work) - not to mention the agents and editors with whom I have also spoken.

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
And, based on their posts on this forum, many trek tie-in authors make most of their money not from royalties, but from the initial pay.
There's a difference between writing your own book (in which you own the content in its entirety), and accepting a job writing content owned by someone else.

(For example, this is the difference between writing your own thriller novel and accepting a flat rate from James Patterson to "co-write" one of his books).

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
And yes, in blockbuster movies cases, the books sold better afterwards. But these are very rare exceptions. How many movies/series based on books were produced to give your sample of ~a dozen? But I guess there's a chance this movie will be one of these blockbusters (it's highly unadvisable to bet on this, though).
Life of Pi was a blockbuster? Game of Thrones is a blockbuster? Hugo Cabret was a blockbuster?

The fact remains: The more successful the movie, the more likely the book sales will increase. You asked for facts, I've provided tangible evidence that shows that successful film adaptations lead to increased book sales.

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
What you are saying can aptly be compared to ~'Card plays the lottery, so I'll boycott it, because there's a chance Card will win and I don't want to give him the money I used to buy a lottery ticket.'
And that's why I find your justification unconvincing.
Well, you find it unconvincing because your posts are obtusely ignoring the evidence supporting the justification.

I'll try to make it simple: Card has said and done things - has donated his own money - for causes which I find reprehensible. I can't and won't stop Card from expressing his opinion, but I will do the one thing I can to protest his actions: Not buy a ticket. Why? Because, based on the evidence above, the more successful the film, the greater financial success for the author (from more than one potential revenue stream). I'm under no false illusions that my decision will significantly affect Card's wealth; he'll do just fine without my buying the ticket. But if I did, it would, in a very real sense, support him. And, because of his words and actions, I'm not going to do that.

It's really that simple. I'm not going to be sitting here, tracking the film's box office. I'm not protesting in front of a theater. Hell, I'm not even going to try convincing anyone else that they shouldn't see the film if they wish. I'm just going to let it go through my local theater, and on the BluRay shelf at the store (or online Warehouse or digital media server), without me paying money for it.
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Old July 12 2013, 09:06 PM   #314
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Nah, Locutus answered better than I could. I just like pointing out the bullshit and leave it to people more eloquent than me to clarify why it's bullshit.

ETA: This was in response to Edit_XYZ's last post.
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Old July 12 2013, 09:16 PM   #315
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
It's pathetic. If you're going to be a bigot, don't be a whiny one when people start calling you on.

Nah. Orson Scott Card isn't a biggot. He doesn't hate homosexuals. Card believes that everyone is homosexual and men only have sex with women because of social pressure to conform.

He sincerely and genuinely believes that if gay marriage were legal then heterosexual marriage would stop, maybe not immediately or completely but certainly in time and for the majority, because it's easier for men to get along with other men and women with other women than it is for the two profoundly alien sexes to commingle with one another.

Card wrote:
Men and women, from childhood on, have very different biological and social imperatives. They are naturally disposed to different reproductive strategies; men are (on average) larger and stronger; the relative levels of various hormones, the difference in the rate of maturity, and many other factors make it far, far easier for women to get along with other women and men to get along with men.

Men, after all, know what men like far better than women do; women know how women think and feel far better than men do. But a man and a woman come together as strangers and their natural impulses remain at odds throughout their lives, requiring constant compromise, suppression of natural desires, and an unending effort to learn how to get through the intersexual swamp.
http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-02-15-1.html

Those aren't the words or opinions of a heterosexual man. No straight person thinks like that.

Obviously, Card is very very gay and struggles to represses his own sexual desires. He, of course, assumes that this is normal and most people are just like him in this regard, that men only marry women because of social expectation and nearly everyone would leap at the chance to marry someone of the same sex if that option were available and that removing the stigma from homosexual unions would end human civilization.

I wouldn't call that bigotry. I'd just call it pitiful.
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