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Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

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Old July 11 2013, 08:31 PM   #271
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Lapis Exilis wrote: View Post
Move that over to the real world for a second - it's the same morality that informed the Spanish Inquisition and that informs Card's anti-gay views. As long as you love the sinner and hate the sin, and it causes you pain rather than gives you pleasure you can do horrible things and remain morally pure. Yet, thousands of sci-fi fans love and adore Ender's Game and can sidestep this issue by saying that the story itself is not anti-gay. It's not explicilty anti-gay, but it certainly lives in a moral world where you can easily situate anti-gay action (or action against any other group of "sinners"), even to the point of violence, and still believe that you are morally pure. So, to me, Card is not the scary thing per se, but the many people who love Ender's Game without apparently looking critically at the dangerous things that it is saying.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a lot of that is because most people read the book when they were around twelve, and most twelve year olds aren't sophisticated literary critics. They probably just identified more with the teenage protagonist and liked the cool space station and ships and stuff.
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Old July 11 2013, 08:43 PM   #272
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Yoda wrote: View Post
We're both in California, an at-will state, which as I understand it means you don't need cause to fire someone.
Sorry, I'm not trying to be funny, but are you really saying that in California you can just fire someone for no reason ?
Well, I may be horribly misinformed (and I really might), but I was under the impression that in most of the US you can be fired on the spot, no reason given. At-will employment. I would find it unthinkably terrifying, but different country, different story.

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a lot of that is because most people read the book when they were around twelve, and most twelve year olds aren't sophisticated literary critics. They probably just identified more with the teenage protagonist and liked the cool space station and ships and stuff.
While today I find myself horrified by the book and its author, I'm pretty sure I would have loved the book in middle school.
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Old July 11 2013, 09:58 PM   #273
Lapis Exilis
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a lot of that is because most people read the book when they were around twelve, and most twelve year olds aren't sophisticated literary critics. They probably just identified more with the teenage protagonist and liked the cool space station and ships and stuff.
Maybe - but I've certainly known a lot of full grown men who have been slavering to get the movie for over a decade. If you're hungry to see a story you loved as a kid, maybe take your own kid to see it - it might be worth giving the tale a little thought, especially when it's a story about children being the victims and perpetrators of violence.

Professor Zoom - I'm not sure why you're belaboring my every point. Congratulations to you for boycotting the film because of Card's political views. I'm trying to point out how the story itself reflects Card's philosophy which creates his political views. Why do you care if the discussion takes that turn?
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Old July 11 2013, 09:59 PM   #274
Relayer1
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Yoda wrote: View Post
We're both in California, an at-will state, which as I understand it means you don't need cause to fire someone.
Sorry, I'm not trying to be funny, but are you really saying that in California you can just fire someone for no reason ?
Well, I may be horribly misinformed (and I really might), but I was under the impression that in most of the US you can be fired on the spot, no reason given. At-will employment. I would find it unthinkably terrifying, but different country, different story.
Jeez, that's unthinkable, to me at least. It's third world stuff...
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Old July 11 2013, 10:23 PM   #275
sojourner
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Yoda wrote: View Post
We're both in California, an at-will state, which as I understand it means you don't need cause to fire someone.
Sorry, I'm not trying to be funny, but are you really saying that in California you can just fire someone for no reason ?
Well, I may be horribly misinformed (and I really might), but I was under the impression that in most of the US you can be fired on the spot, no reason given. At-will employment. I would find it unthinkably terrifying, but different country, different story.
In general it varies from state to state. As I understand it, it tends to follow in which states that unions don't have any power. For example in Florida unions can't do jack shit.
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Old July 11 2013, 10:35 PM   #276
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Again though, if you have a Human Resources Department or a Human Resources Person, they are so skittish about being sued, and there is such a high percentage of the population who are part of a protected group, even in the "Employment at Will" states, HR will not allow you to fire someone for no reason, because you have a high percentage possibility they may sue you for being fired for being Gay, old, black, etc, etc. Small businesses with no Human Resources yes, there is a risk, but, really, that risk exists wether it's an "Employment at will" state or not in that size of a work place.

Layoff, yea, you can get laid off for no reason, other than lack of profitability, and that is sometimes used to get rid of folks you couldn't fire, but, almost no one will take a chance of firing someone without a legitimate reason.
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Old July 11 2013, 10:54 PM   #277
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Also, aren't unemployment benefits often tied to the means by which employment is terminated?
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Old July 11 2013, 11:01 PM   #278
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

I normally see most sci-fi, either at the cinema or on DVD, but i will certainly be giving Ender's Game a miss. My reason is my strong dislike of Orson Scott Card. My dislike of him is solely based on his apalling statements about gays. I wouldn't matter if he was the greatest sci-fi writer of all time because it is the man I dislike not his writing ability.

I also have, in the last few years, boycotted every movie that Tom Cruise is in because I have a strong dislike of him which stems from statements he has made in support of scientology.

There are plenty of movies to for me to watch without having to include any movie that OSC or TC are connected with so I am not really missing out on much and I don't have to sit through a movie knowing the writer of the story or an actor in the movie very presence annoys me.
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Old July 11 2013, 11:18 PM   #279
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Miss Chicken wrote: View Post
I also have, in the last few years, boycotted every movie that Tom Cruise is in because I have a strong dislike of him which stems from statements he has made in support of scientology.
Hollywood is absolutely full of scientologists. I think you may as well boycott major American motion pictures altogether if you don't wanna fund them.
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Old July 11 2013, 11:23 PM   #280
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Miss Chicken wrote: View Post
I also have, in the last few years, boycotted every movie that Tom Cruise is in because I have a strong dislike of him which stems from statements he has made in support of scientology.
Hollywood is absolutely full of scientologists. I think you may as well boycott major American motion pictures altogether if you don't wanna fund them.
Few are as confrontational and hostile as Cruise. Also few claim that they can help car crash victims due to what they learned in the cult.

He's probably crazy, but he's a good actor and I enjoy most of his films.
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Old July 11 2013, 11:25 PM   #281
DalekJim
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

I know next to nothing about Tom Cruise's personal life but I love him in Magnolia and Eyes Wide Shut.
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Old July 11 2013, 11:26 PM   #282
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Samuel Walters wrote: View Post
Lapis Exilis wrote: View Post
I'm not one for confusing the art and artist - Picasso was a misogynistic prick, but that doesn't make his paintings bad. Card's not exactly going to use the money he makes from Ender's Game to go on any anti-gay rights campaigns, so I don't see the point of a boycott based on his personal opinions about homosexuality. If you only partook of art created by people whose every single thought and opinion you agreed with, we'd all have a very limited selection of art to chose from.
I've been thinking about this a bit ... and ... well, I don't want to be overly flippant, but I think it's easier to disassociate artist from art when the artist is dead. For starters, appreciating a Picasso painting is different than purchasing a Card book or a ticket to a movie based on one of his books. Also, any money spent to appreciate a Picasso (say, at the Met), isn't going to subsidize his life and any objectionable things he might subsequently do with that subsidy. Perhaps once Card has moved on, and provided his estate isn't bequeathed to groups based on his current views, I think more people will be willing to at least give his work a chance - based on its inherent merits, and not on the detriments of its artist.
I think as well that once works become historical it is easier to accept them based on attitudes of the time. Works that use racial slurs like Heart of Darkness or Huckleberry Finn for example. Also, works that contain blatant anti-semitic or sexist attitudes like Eliot or Hemingway. We tend to read them with mindful of when they were written.

That said, I regularly do not support works by actors or celebrities I disagree with. You will never see me at a Tom Cruise movie for example, or staying at a Hilton unless someone is paying for it. This current boycott, however, is far more likely to draw attention to the film than it is to encourage people not to see it.
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Old July 11 2013, 11:26 PM   #283
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Hollywood is absolutely full of scientologists. I think you may as well boycott major American motion pictures altogether if you don't wanna fund them.

I didn't say that. I said it is why I dislike Tom Cruise not that I dislike every single scientologist. Tom Cruise openly speaks more shit than the rest of them.

I can tolerate John Travolta though I don't often watch movies he is in because he is bit of a crap actor. The last movie I watched him in was The Taking of Pelham 123.
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Old July 11 2013, 11:28 PM   #284
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Miss Chicken wrote: View Post
I didn't say that. I said it is why I dislike Tom Cruise not that I dislike every single scientologist. Tom Cruise openly speaks more shit than the rest of them.

I can tolerate John Travolta though I don't often watch movies he is in because he is bit of a crap actor. The last movie I watched him in was The Taking of Pelham 123.
His last good movie was Pulp Fiction and he's far from the best performance in it.
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Old July 12 2013, 12:49 AM   #285
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
Miss Chicken wrote: View Post
I didn't say that. I said it is why I dislike Tom Cruise not that I dislike every single scientologist. Tom Cruise openly speaks more shit than the rest of them.

I can tolerate John Travolta though I don't often watch movies he is in because he is bit of a crap actor. The last movie I watched him in was The Taking of Pelham 123.
His last good movie was Pulp Fiction and he's far from the best performance in it.

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