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Old July 11 2013, 03:49 PM   #226
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
But, as I mentioned before, the controversy could very well draw millions into the movie out of curiousity
It gains the highest grossing box-office weekend of all-time due to everybody wanting to see this shocking anti-gay movie people are talking about. Then audiences sit baffled as they are greeted by a military sci-fi story about a child.
Again, who has said that the movie itself is anti-gay? Jesus, you're obtuse.
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Old July 11 2013, 03:55 PM   #227
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
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So nobody should ever take a stand on anything they believe in, unless they take a stand on every other injustice in the world at the same time?



What a joke.
No, I'm saying that people shouldn't pass off not seeing a movie they'd never have had any intention of seeing anyway, as political activism, without expecting ridicule. I respect those that say they read Ender's Game, liked it.. yet won't support the movie because they don't want to give Card money to fuel his homophobic campaigns.

I don't respect the people saying Ender's Game is both a rubbish novel, that the film looks bad, and that they're going to boycott the movie to avoid fuelling Card's homophobic campaigns. They're not boycotting anything. They're not seeing a movie they know they wouldn't enjoy anyway, and passing it off as a political move. It's obvious and total bullshit.

Admiral Buzzkillsaid in this thread said the trailer for the film looked shit. That rids his boycott of any meaning. Any political agenda or angle has been lost. He's just not seeing a movie he thinks looks lame, and dressing it up as a political statement. It's hilarious.
For the record, I can't stand the Political machine of either the Republicans or The Democrats, they're all a bunch of crooks, there is almost difference between them, and they lie constantly, and don't serve their constituents, but, serve their donors. The true meaning of a Bi-Partisan Bill is that donors on both sides of the aisle get free candy.

As far as being liberal, I get chewed up on "liberal" sites for my views, and my views are accepted far more amongst Conservatives (That aren't anti-Gay) and Libertarians. So, I'm not sure where this "liberal fantasy" thing comes

I have seen the trailers and I have read the synopsis, they don't appeal to me, and Card's views cement my decision to not see the movie. if it wasn't for his attempts at trying to curtail my rights (And people like him being responsible for a high percentage of Teen suicides due to their "Loving attempts to show them the way out of Gayness". Which fortunately has gone down some as more people are now accepting of Gays, so Gay teens have more resources to know how despicable that kind of "love" really is) I would be more open to be convinced there is merit in the movie, so, no, I am not ignorant and just avoiding the movie because of his views, and it needn't have been that I stayed away because of the trailers.

I've read SRD Covenant Chronicles, The Gap Cycle and Mordant's Need (Despite the absolute chore of getting through the first book of The Gap Cycle due to the abuse, which was far, far worse, then the rape in Lord Foul's bane, which caused me to put the book down twice before I finally read past it). If SRD promoted Rape or abuse of women, then I wouldn't have pushed on. SRD is an awesome writer, very descriptive, excellent with the Human Condition and putting ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances.

So, it's a combination of all things, and an informed decision that I made, not a decision that was forced upon me by "The liberal Agenda"
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Old July 11 2013, 04:08 PM   #228
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
But, as I mentioned before, the controversy could very well draw millions into the movie out of curiousity
It gains the highest grossing box-office weekend of all-time due to everybody wanting to see this shocking anti-gay movie people are talking about. Then audiences sit baffled as they are greeted by a military sci-fi story about a child.
Again, who has said that the movie itself is anti-gay? Jesus, you're obtuse.
I'd rather be obtuse than constantly look for reasons to be upset . We've already had a poster in this thread state Ender's Game is anti-gay, and that the enemy alien race are a stand-in for homosexuals. We've also had somebody link to an article they praise, in which Ender's Game is stated to be based on the life of Adolph Hitler. These things strike me as absurd.

Sindatur wrote:
For the record, I can't stand the Political machine of either the Republicans or The Democrats, they're all a bunch of crooks, there is almost difference between them, and they lie constantly, and don't serve their constituents, but, serve their donors.


As far as being liberal, I get chewed up on "liberal" sites for my views, and my views are accepted far more amongst Conservatives (That aren't anti-Gay) and Libertarians.


So, I'm not sure where this "liberal fantasy" thing comes
I wasn't referring to you. Your argument and decision makes sense.
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Old July 11 2013, 04:12 PM   #229
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

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But, boycotting his movie and thinking that you're embracing free speech and being noble is pretty silly.
Good thing no one has done that then, huh? The only ones who think they're being noble defenders of free speech have been on the other side of the argument.

Wasn't everyone up in arms when some guy supposedly fired an employee for having an Obama bumper sticker?
You don't see a slight difference in not spending money on a movie written by a virulent and borderline fascist homophobe who contributes to denying people's rights and firing someone not based on poor job performance but simply based on having a political bumper sticker you disagree with?
A difference of degree, sure, but not in the underlying principle. "Job performance" in this case would be analogous to how good of a movie Ender's Game ends up being. If an employer thinks that Obama is an Evil Muslim out to destroy America, why shouldn't he shitcan him? Some of that money the he's paying him will probably end up in the Obama war chest.

In both cases the idea is to shut up people you disagree with by hurting them financially.
Not really, it's worlds of difference. Firing someone for their political views is illegal. Making a choice not to support the work of someone who's political beliefs disagree with yours is legal and an integral part of Capitalism
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Old July 11 2013, 04:12 PM   #230
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
A bit off topic, but it's an interesting diversion for me.

Admiral2 wrote: View Post
Horrendous generalities, but here it is: Sci-fi, being principally interested in understanding the present to speculate about the future, is intrinsically progressive (even tho there is a strong libertarian bend in many contemporary sci-fi works).
Bull. "Intrinsically" implies that the progressive bent in the sci-fi story is automatic. It's not. No ideology is automatic to a fiction story.
Progressivism, in its general meaning, is a political phylosophy that concern itself with the possibility and the opportunity of progress and change in society, be it social or economical, especially through technological advancements and the expansion of rights. By this definition, it is pretty much intrinsically intertwined with the basics of science fiction, which postulates that, for good or bad, the future will be different from the present, and the past.

It is worth nothing, as I said above, that not all progressive thinking is exactly the same. The only underlying factor is the possibility of change in society.

Heinlein's fascination with the military might not fit with the current brand of liberal progressivism, but it's far from general. Communist leaders thought themselves the ultimate progressives, but they were also militant, aggressive, and warlike.

Conservative thought, historically speaking, has very little to do with the uses and extent of government power. By definition, it promotes holding to traditional social institutions and roles, and opposes changes in society as destabilizing and dangerous.

You are looking at this from a very American and very narrow point of view, which is understandable, but very unfortunate.


If bigots will learn to keep their mouth shut about their bigoted views for fear of being shunned by the decent people, the world will be a better place.

So you "don't care" about Card denying gay people their basic rights, advocating their incarceration in camps, and even threatening armed rebellion against the government if it doesn't play along with his bigoted views, but it "terrifies" you that people speak against him and choose not to give him money.

That's a... peculiar point of view and I think it tells us what are your priorities.

Pingfah wrote: View Post
Why Card gets a free pass, and his opponents demonised, I don't really know.
I guess it's because Ender's Game apparently strikes close to a lot of people's heart, and I think this is the reason for that:

This, I fear, is the appeal of Ender’s Game: it models this scenario precisely and absolves the child of any doubt that his actions in response to such treatment are questionable. It offers revenge without guilt. If you ever as a child felt unloved, if you ever feared that at some level you might deserve any abuse you suffered, Ender’s story tells you that you do not. In your soul, you are good. You are specially gifted, and better than anyone else. Your mistreatment is the evidence of your gifts. You are morally superior. Your turn will come, and then you may severely punish others, yet remain blameless. You are the hero.

God, how I would have loved this book in seventh grade! (...) It’s a good thing I didn’t grow up to elaborate my fantasies of personal revenge into an all-encompassing system of ethics. The bullying I suffered, which seemed overwhelming to me then, was undeniably real, and wrong. But it did not make me the center of the universe. My sense of righteousness, one that might have justified any violence, was exaggerated beyond any reality, and no true morality could grow in me until I put it aside. I had to let go of my sense of myself as victim of a cosmic morality play, not in order to justify the abuse—I didn’t deserve to be hurt—but in order to avoid acting it out. I had to learn not to suppress it and strike back. (...)

For an adolescent ridden with rage and self-pity, who feels himself abused (and what adolescent doesn’t?), what’s not to like about this scenario? So we all want to be Ender. As Elaine Radford has said, “We would all like to believe that our suffering has made us special—especially if it gives us a righteous reason to destroy our enemies.”

I think progressivism is about positive change, not change in general. Therefore, more pessimistic sci-fi, like dystopian sci-fi, wouldn't necessarily be "progressive." This would especially be the case if the purpose of the story was to show something like how a collapse in respect for traditional institutions like the Military or the Church contributed toward a disastrous future.
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Old July 11 2013, 04:18 PM   #231
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

sonak wrote: View Post
I think progressivism is about positive change, not change in general. Therefore, more pessimistic sci-fi, like dystopian sci-fi, wouldn't necessarily be "progressive."
Dystopian sci-fi almost always centres on social commentary, and said social commentary could push a "progressive" viewpoint.

Though I dislike the term "progressive" in a political context as it is entirely subjective regarding what the progress is, at what point we're progressing from, and where the progress leads to. I find most people that identify themselves as simply "progressive" have no real political convictions beyond the broad desire for change. Ask for their own views on what kind of economic systems should be placed in substitute of the ones we have, and you'll often be left with silence.
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Old July 11 2013, 04:21 PM   #232
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

It's true many Progressives have good intentions, and truly believe their suggested change is for a positive future, but, that doesn't automatically make the result positive, it's just as likely that Progressive was wrong and the idea was bad. It also doesn't account for "Anything but this, something has to be done" Progressives who slap something together that can become the worst solution possible.

So, yea, Progressive means inclined towards change, although there is hope the change will be good, being good isn't necessarily an attribute of Progressivism.
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Old July 11 2013, 04:21 PM   #233
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
I think progressivism is about positive change, not change in general. Therefore, more pessimistic sci-fi, like dystopian sci-fi, wouldn't necessarily be "progressive."
Dystopian sci-fi almost always centres on social commentary, and said social commentary could push a "progressive" viewpoint.

Though I dislike the term "progressive" in a political context as it is entirely subjective regarding what the progress is, at what point we're progressing from, and where the progress leads to. I find most people that identify themselves as simply "progressive" have no real political convictions beyond the broad desire for change.

I was going to address that in my reply, but thought it was too off-topic. I'll just say that I totally agree, and that being left-wing myself, I'm deeply annoyed that liberals(which, if you assume they mean "social liberal" actually has real meaning and tends to be connected to specific policies) started to refer to themselves as "progressive," which is a much more empty term, and as you wrote, meaning progress toward what?
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Old July 11 2013, 04:37 PM   #234
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

sonak wrote: View Post
I was going to address that in my reply, but thought it was too off-topic. I'll just say that I totally agree, and that being left-wing myself, I'm deeply annoyed that liberals(which, if you assume they mean "social liberal" actually has real meaning and tends to be connected to specific policies) started to refer to themselves as "progressive," which is a much more empty term, and as you wrote, meaning progress toward what?
I have some leftist beliefs but am much more of a libertarian. Way too nihilistic to be a liberal. And before people ask "How can you like Star Trek if you're not one of us?", I'm also obsessed with The Lord of the Rings but I don't believe we should have a monarchy . I fucking love TNG, but don't think such a world is particularly achievable.
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Old July 11 2013, 04:41 PM   #235
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
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Again, who has said that the movie itself is anti-gay? Jesus, you're obtuse.
I'd rather be obtuse than constantly look for reasons to be upset . We've already had a poster in this thread state Ender's Game is anti-gay, and that the enemy alien race are a stand-in for homosexuals. We've also had somebody link to an article they praise, in which Ender's Game is stated to be based on the life of Adolph Hitler. These things strike me as absurd.
the majority of people that said they don't want to see the film because they don't want to give card money because of his viewpoint. not because of these reasons that only you keep bringing up. it is a valid reason for not going to see the film, not some liberal agenda tantamount to censorship. this is capitalism in action.

this has been said many times over and over. please stop coming back with statements that address different arguements.
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Old July 11 2013, 04:44 PM   #236
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post

It gains the highest grossing box-office weekend of all-time due to everybody wanting to see this shocking anti-gay movie people are talking about. Then audiences sit baffled as they are greeted by a military sci-fi story about a child.
Again, who has said that the movie itself is anti-gay? Jesus, you're obtuse.
I'd rather be obtuse than constantly look for reasons to be upset . We've already had a poster in this thread state Ender's Game is anti-gay, and that the enemy alien race are a stand-in for homosexuals. We've also had somebody link to an article they praise, in which Ender's Game is stated to be based on the life of Adolph Hitler. These things strike me as absurd.
One guy on the first(?) page got confused because "bugger" can be slang for sodomy. Get over it already. It's not indicative of the tone of the arguments here.

Have people used the Ender/Hitler comparison in the article as justification for saying they're avoiding the movie, or have they argued that they're doing it because of Card's views and actions? Even the person who posted the article didn't use that as a reason not to see the movie.

Move the fuck on and find a new argument.
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Old July 11 2013, 04:45 PM   #237
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

I genuinely don't get why you keep hectoring me. I did move on, pages ago. You keep replying to unrelated posts and dragging this stuff up.
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Old July 11 2013, 04:47 PM   #238
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

moving on is not coming up with answers to questions no one asked.
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Old July 11 2013, 04:49 PM   #239
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

junxon wrote: View Post
moving on is not coming up with answers to questions no one asked.
No idea what this means, but alright.
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Old July 11 2013, 04:55 PM   #240
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
I genuinely don't get why you keep hectoring me.
It's my Achilles' heel.

Ba dum cha. I'll be here all week, folks. Try the veal.

No one's bullying you, just like no one's bullying Card. The reactions you're getting are entirely of your own making. I believe personal responsibility is one of those supposed conservative tenets, is it not?

(oops, I dropped the "c-word" again, so that's twice for me, about 50 or so times for you and "liberal")

I did move on, pages ago. You keep replying to unrelated posts and dragging this stuff up.
What? You just brought it up again in the damn post. What delusional fairytale conversations are you carrying on?
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