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Old July 11 2013, 02:30 PM   #211
DalekJim
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Pingfah wrote: View Post
So nobody should ever take a stand on anything they believe in, unless they take a stand on every other injustice in the world at the same time?



What a joke.
No, I'm saying that people shouldn't pass off not seeing a movie they'd never have had any intention of seeing anyway, as political activism, without expecting ridicule. I respect those that say they read Ender's Game, liked it.. yet won't support the movie because they don't want to give Card money to fuel his homophobic campaigns.

I don't respect the people saying Ender's Game is both a rubbish novel, that the film looks bad, and that they're going to boycott the movie to avoid fuelling Card's homophobic campaigns. They're not boycotting anything. They're not seeing a movie they know they wouldn't enjoy anyway, and passing it off as a political move. It's obvious and total bullshit.

Admiral Buzzkillsaid in this thread said the trailer for the film looked shit. That rids his boycott of any meaning. Any political agenda or angle has been lost. He's just not seeing a movie he thinks looks lame, and dressing it up as a political statement. It's hilarious.
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Old July 11 2013, 02:32 PM   #212
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Nagisa Furukawa wrote: View Post
I don't see why you're so adamant to get this fictional, not-actually-happening scenario "answered" but I'll give mine straight and blunt if you think DalekJim is side-stepping.
As I already explained twice, it's not just about answering this specific scenario, it's the general dishonesty and dismissiveness that's been the hallmark of his arguments from the start. That was simply one example.

I'd have no problem seeing that movie. I don't think when I pay someone for a service (be it bringing me food, fixing my roof or making a movie for me to enjoy) that their political views have anything to do with the service I'm paying them for. I don't feel bad for lining their pockets because I'm not paying them for expressing an opinion; I'm paying them for the service and how well they do it. I'm sure I've had people fix my plumbing by men who think women should stay in the kitchen, bought candy at a store whose owners think all Mexicans should be kicked out of the US. Nor do I think that their vocalness on these issues should matter either. If someone takes my money and gives it to a racist/sexist/homophobic organization and I don't know, they're doing it all the same and I don't think I should punish the person who is open about what they believe, even if I don't agree, just because they're not keeping their mouth shut. So yes, I dunno about DalekJim, but I would see a movie by Fred Phelps if it looks interesting and well-made (all of this is under the assumption it's something like Ender's Game, something completely irrelevant to Phelps' opinions on homosexuality, correct?), disagreeing with him on what he spends the majority of his time doing while not feeling bad about giving him $7 for a product that has nothing to do with his homophobia.

Does that answer your question?
Yep, it does. I disagree completely, but it answers it.

Also, it's kind of a cop-out comparing it to things where you don't know what the people support (you didn't do that on all of the examples, but some). You're fully aware of what Card spends his time and money supporting now.
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Old July 11 2013, 02:33 PM   #213
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Pingfah wrote: View Post
Hey look, it's Mr Benn's shopkeeper!
Hey look, it's someone merely pointing out who my friends are rather than debate my points!
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Old July 11 2013, 02:38 PM   #214
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Also, it's kind of a cop-out comparing it to things where you don't know what the people support (you didn't do that on all of the examples, but some). You're fully aware of what Card spends his time and money supporting now.
But I said say, "Nor do I think that their vocalness on these issues should matter either. If someone takes my money and gives it to a racist/sexist/homophobic organization and I don't know, they're doing it all the same and I don't think I should punish the person who is open about what they believe, even if I don't agree, just because they're not keeping their mouth shut."

Whether someone is a homophobe who gives money to homophobic organizations in private or the same but public, I still do not care what their political opinions are if I am paying for a service so long as those opinions aren't impeding the service I paid them for. If my waiter at a restaurant went on a racist rant while I waited for him to bring me food or Ender's Game bashed me over the head with homophobia every two pages, I wouldn't enjoy either. But in their personal lives, outside of the work being paid for them, their opinions are their opinions whether they never say them aloud or go on TV and express them.
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Old July 11 2013, 02:41 PM   #215
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Yoda wrote: View Post
But, boycotting his movie and thinking that you're embracing free speech and being noble is pretty silly.
Good thing no one has done that then, huh? The only ones who think they're being noble defenders of free speech have been on the other side of the argument.

Wasn't everyone up in arms when some guy supposedly fired an employee for having an Obama bumper sticker?
You don't see a slight difference in not spending money on a movie written by a virulent and borderline fascist homophobe who contributes to denying people's rights and firing someone not based on poor job performance but simply based on having a political bumper sticker you disagree with?

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Admiral Buzzkill said in this thread said the trailer for the film looked shit. That rids his boycott of any meaning. Any political agenda or angle has been lost. He's just not seeing a movie he thinks looks lame, and dressing it up as a political statement. It's hilarious.
I believe he also said he's not participating in any boycott, but simply isn't seeing the film because he thinks it looks like crap from the trailers. And then separately from that he also pointed out that Card is a bigoted asshole. What's the problem? There's nothing contradictory about that.
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Old July 11 2013, 02:42 PM   #216
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

No doubt about it, Card is a douchebag. With that being said, the bastard wrote a novel I enjoyed, and I'm going to see the movie, because there are many, many, many non douchebags who have worked on it and deserve to have their hard work judged on its own merits, and not that of a bigot who wrote it.
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Old July 11 2013, 02:46 PM   #217
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

TheMurph wrote: View Post
No doubt about it, Card is a douchebag. With that being said, the bastard wrote a novel I enjoyed, and I'm going to see the movie, because there are many, many, many non douchebags who have worked on it and deserve to have their hard work judged on its own merits, and not that of a bigot who wrote it.
There you go. I have no problem with that stance whatsoever. If that had been the stance some others had taken this would have likely been a much shorter thread.
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Old July 11 2013, 02:50 PM   #218
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Also, most of the rest of people in Hollywood (writers, directors, producers, actors) are ALSO douchebags, so where do you draw the line? How douchey is TOO douchey? These things aren't being churned out by monks...
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Old July 11 2013, 02:59 PM   #219
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Calling for gay people to be imprisoned, calling gays a "genetic mistake," calling for the violent overthrow of the government if it legalizes same-sex marriage, and actively supporting through money and serving on the board of organizations that deny a whole group of people their civil rights seems like a pretty easy douche point to draw the line on for me. And that's just a small sample of Card's backwardness.
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Old July 11 2013, 03:05 PM   #220
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Yoda wrote: View Post
But, boycotting his movie and thinking that you're embracing free speech and being noble is pretty silly.
Good thing no one has done that then, huh? The only ones who think they're being noble defenders of free speech have been on the other side of the argument.

Wasn't everyone up in arms when some guy supposedly fired an employee for having an Obama bumper sticker?
You don't see a slight difference in not spending money on a movie written by a virulent and borderline fascist homophobe who contributes to denying people's rights and firing someone not based on poor job performance but simply based on having a political bumper sticker you disagree with?
A difference of degree, sure, but not in the underlying principle. "Job performance" in this case would be analogous to how good of a movie Ender's Game ends up being. If an employer thinks that Obama is an Evil Muslim out to destroy America, why shouldn't he shitcan him? Some of that money the he's paying him will probably end up in the Obama war chest.

In both cases the idea is to shut up people you disagree with by hurting them financially.
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Old July 11 2013, 03:09 PM   #221
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

M'rk, son of Mogh wrote: View Post
Has Card already been paid for the rights to his work?

If so, boycotting the film does nothing to him and only "hurts" others that may not even share his views.
Not really. If the movie bombs, and it's believed it's due to his horrific prejudicial statements, it's unlikely he'll make another sale of rights for another movie. Continued business is at least as important as today's paycheck. If the movie does well enough, it could warrant sequels and he could be getting the same paycheck 5 times over the next 10 years. If it bombs, he could easily lose those future paydays

Yes, if it bombs, it's a shame for those who worked on the picture that don't share his views, but, that's the price of doing business with the devil, it rubs off on you. But, as I mentioned before, the controversy could very well draw millions into the movie out of curiousity (That maybe wouldn't have been interested if it wasn't for the extra press flare up) and could be the thing that puts the movie over the top
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Old July 11 2013, 03:15 PM   #222
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post

No, I'm saying that people shouldn't pass off not seeing a movie they'd never have had any intention of seeing anyway, as political activism, without expecting ridicule. I respect those that say they read Ender's Game, liked it.. yet won't support the movie because they don't want to give Card money to fuel his homophobic campaigns.

I don't respect the people saying Ender's Game is both a rubbish novel, that the film looks bad, and that they're going to boycott the movie to avoid fuelling Card's homophobic campaigns. They're not boycotting anything. They're not seeing a movie they know they wouldn't enjoy anyway, and passing it off as a political move. It's obvious and total bullshit.
Really this is all nonsense, you have no idea at all who would or wouldn't have seen the film, and these two absurdly specific sample types of moviegoer are far from the only possibilities in terms of who is going to purposefully not see this film.

Whether they have read the book or not has nothing to do with it, the book itself has nothing to do with it. You don't need to have read the book to be aware of Card's views and activities, nor to want to see the film, nor to want to avoid it.
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Old July 11 2013, 03:23 PM   #223
DalekJim
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Sindatur wrote: View Post
But, as I mentioned before, the controversy could very well draw millions into the movie out of curiousity
It gains the highest grossing box-office weekend of all-time due to everybody wanting to see this shocking anti-gay movie people are talking about. Then audiences sit baffled as they are greeted by a military sci-fi story about a child.
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Old July 11 2013, 03:36 PM   #224
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Well, if people really do form picket lines outside theatres like it was suggested earlier in the thread, than, yeah, I could see that actually helping the movie. That's going to draw media attention, people watching the news/reading the paper/whatever their preferred news delivery method is are going to see people forming picket lines trying to discourage others from seeing Ender's Game. Average Joe who knows nothing about Card or Ender's Game will be all "one movie's causing all this commotion? Guess I know what I'm doing this weekend."
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Old July 11 2013, 03:37 PM   #225
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

A bit off topic, but it's an interesting diversion for me.

Admiral2 wrote: View Post
Horrendous generalities, but here it is: Sci-fi, being principally interested in understanding the present to speculate about the future, is intrinsically progressive (even tho there is a strong libertarian bend in many contemporary sci-fi works).
Bull. "Intrinsically" implies that the progressive bent in the sci-fi story is automatic. It's not. No ideology is automatic to a fiction story.
Progressivism, in its general meaning, is a political phylosophy that concern itself with the possibility and the opportunity of progress and change in society, be it social or economical, especially through technological advancements and the expansion of rights. By this definition, it is pretty much intrinsically intertwined with the basics of science fiction, which postulates that, for good or bad, the future will be different from the present, and the past.

Admiral2 wrote: View Post
And most of the time, the progressive bend is what I'm seeing, but if what you're saying is true, then any story that depicts the future would have the exact same trait.
It is worth nothing, as I said above, that not all progressive thinking is exactly the same. The only underlying factor is the possibility of change in society.

Admiral2 wrote: View Post
So then how do you explain Starship Troopers, or practically any other book Robert Heinlein wrote before the 80's?
Heinlein's fascination with the military might not fit with the current brand of liberal progressivism, but it's far from general. Communist leaders thought themselves the ultimate progressives, but they were also militant, aggressive, and warlike.

Admiral2 wrote: View Post
Fantasy, on the other hand, being about an imaginary past with a strong emphasis on traditional values, is habitually conservative.
Again, bull, because this statement is based on a fundamental misunderstanding about Conservative Political thought, which is based on the uses and extent of government power, and has little to do with the dictionary definition of the word "conservative." It's also a pejorative Progressives typically level against Conservatives. (i.e. "He wants to live in the past!")
Conservative thought, historically speaking, has very little to do with the uses and extent of government power. By definition, it promotes holding to traditional social institutions and roles, and opposes changes in society as destabilizing and dangerous.

You are looking at this from a very American and very narrow point of view, which is understandable, but very unfortunate.


Whitepaper wrote: View Post
The view for me actually comes down to a trend that saying anything from "the wrong side" isn't politically good..I tend to begin to watch what i'm saying because suddenly I would be on the wrong side and judged from it..in my opinion all this does is make things more invisible. We would need a good dialogue in this world to really improve things but when you're afraid that people will be torching you for presenting an idea about something they consider wrong (on their own moral basis which necessarily isn't the same as everybody else's)..
If bigots will learn to keep their mouth shut about their bigoted views for fear of being shunned by the decent people, the world will be a better place.

Whitepaper wrote: View Post
I don't personally care about Card's views but I do care about the reaction that I'm seeing and it terrifies me a little(very little and more based on what I see in daily life). I'm just afraid that people aren't going to be open minded and that there will be certain restrictions on "tolerated point of views".
So you "don't care" about Card denying gay people their basic rights, advocating their incarceration in camps, and even threatening armed rebellion against the government if it doesn't play along with his bigoted views, but it "terrifies" you that people speak against him and choose not to give him money.

That's a... peculiar point of view and I think it tells us what are your priorities.

Pingfah wrote: View Post
Why Card gets a free pass, and his opponents demonised, I don't really know.
I guess it's because Ender's Game apparently strikes close to a lot of people's heart, and I think this is the reason for that:

This, I fear, is the appeal of Ender’s Game: it models this scenario precisely and absolves the child of any doubt that his actions in response to such treatment are questionable. It offers revenge without guilt. If you ever as a child felt unloved, if you ever feared that at some level you might deserve any abuse you suffered, Ender’s story tells you that you do not. In your soul, you are good. You are specially gifted, and better than anyone else. Your mistreatment is the evidence of your gifts. You are morally superior. Your turn will come, and then you may severely punish others, yet remain blameless. You are the hero.

God, how I would have loved this book in seventh grade! (...) It’s a good thing I didn’t grow up to elaborate my fantasies of personal revenge into an all-encompassing system of ethics. The bullying I suffered, which seemed overwhelming to me then, was undeniably real, and wrong. But it did not make me the center of the universe. My sense of righteousness, one that might have justified any violence, was exaggerated beyond any reality, and no true morality could grow in me until I put it aside. I had to let go of my sense of myself as victim of a cosmic morality play, not in order to justify the abuse—I didn’t deserve to be hurt—but in order to avoid acting it out. I had to learn not to suppress it and strike back. (...)

For an adolescent ridden with rage and self-pity, who feels himself abused (and what adolescent doesn’t?), what’s not to like about this scenario? So we all want to be Ender. As Elaine Radford has said, “We would all like to believe that our suffering has made us special—especially if it gives us a righteous reason to destroy our enemies.”
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