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Old July 11 2013, 09:50 AM   #196
Pingfah
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Sindatur wrote: View Post
<SIGH>Those not defending Card have repeatedly stated that he has the right to say anything, there is no hint in this thread of Americans wanting to abridge or legislatively penalize Card for his statements. It's all Private and Capitalism, no Legal barriers have been suggested, except by those who are arguing against judging him personally, but no one judging him personally is suggesting any Legal abridgement
Well, they have to make up something to argue against, because otherwise the notion of avoiding a film as a matter of personal conscience, that helps to deepen the pockets of an outspoken, self promoting, hatemongering activist is about as uncontroversial as it gets.

I wonder if we'd see the same level of indignation if Fred Phelps decided to write a movie, and people didn't want to go see that? I somehow doubt it. Why Card gets a free pass, and his opponents demonised, I don't really know.
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Old July 11 2013, 11:15 AM   #197
DalekJim
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

I question Fred Phelps's sci-fi writing pedigree.
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Old July 11 2013, 11:59 AM   #198
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Difference between writing something people enjoy and then later coming out as a douchebag, and someone that's already a hated douchebag trying their hand at something.

Card got people to like his work BEFORE they disliked him as a person. If they already hate you, harder road to success
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Old July 11 2013, 12:48 PM   #199
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Pingfah wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
<SIGH>Those not defending Card have repeatedly stated that he has the right to say anything, there is no hint in this thread of Americans wanting to abridge or legislatively penalize Card for his statements. It's all Private and Capitalism, no Legal barriers have been suggested, except by those who are arguing against judging him personally, but no one judging him personally is suggesting any Legal abridgement
Well, they have to make up something to argue against, because otherwise the notion of avoiding a film as a matter of personal conscience, that helps to deepen the pockets of an outspoken, self promoting, hatemongering activist is about as uncontroversial as it gets.

I wonder if we'd see the same level of indignation if Fred Phelps decided to write a movie, and people didn't want to go see that? I somehow doubt it. Why Card gets a free pass, and his opponents demonised, I don't really know.
DalekJim wrote: View Post
I question Fred Phelps's sci-fi writing pedigree.
I question your ability to actually address anyone's arguments head on for once. From the start (and in the previous thread on Card) you've done nothing but grossly misrepresent the arguments of those that disagree with you and paint yourself as the beleaguered defender of free speech rights that NO ONE here is trying to take away from Card.

In fact the only one who has advocated for denying anyone's rights is Card himself, so it's especially hypocritical and humorous to see so many up at arms about his rights NOT being threatened when he actively donates to and coordinates organizations that seek to deny civil rights (and have successfully denied them in California and Maine and elsewhere) and has advocated for armed rebellion against any government the legalizes same-sex marriage and the imprisonment of homosexuals ("a genetic mistake") for simply living their lives and not harming anyone.

How about instead of crying wolf about liberals every other post you instead get up at arms about that? This shouldn't even be an exclusively liberal issue as you've painted it. Conservatives used to believe in small government and staying out of people's private lives, right? Well, that's the storybook version anyway, but reality didn't always live up to the hype, with some notable exceptions. So, why not oppose Card's actions on those grounds?

I don't even care if you go see the movie or not or speak out strongly in favor of gay rights. But at the very least stop martyring Card and yourself on the altar of free speech rights that no one is actually threatening to take away, because it's childish and petty and disingenuous. And while you're at it, why not try responding to someone's argument honestly without sidestepping the issue or building a huge strawman in the process? You are capable of doing that, right?
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Old July 11 2013, 01:34 PM   #200
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

I don't see what that has to do with what I wrote at all. I was addressing Pingfah's question as to why people would care less if Fred Phelps wrote a movie. I firmly believe it's because Fred Phelps isn't an acclaimed sci-fi writer, and has zero experience in the genre.

Though I am aware this view may be controversial.
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Old July 11 2013, 01:50 PM   #201
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

That would be relevant, had I said anything about him writing a sci-fi movie. But since I didn't, it isn't. What kind of movie he was writing wasn't at all relevant to the point, much as the content of Ender's Game isn't relevant either.
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Old July 11 2013, 01:51 PM   #202
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
I don't see what that has to do with what I wrote at all. I was stating that people would care less if Fred Phelps wrote a movie, because Fred Phelps isn't an acclaimed sci-fi writer.
It's not just about what you wrote there, though that's part of the sidestepping issue I've been talking about, it's your general attitude and behavior throughout this and the previous Card thread. The worst part being your total misrepresentation of the opposition viewpoint.

If you wanted engage his point honestly, you could have imagined a what if scenario where Fred Phelps (or a fictional person who shared his views, tactics, and infamy) actually did put out a movie and how you would feel about people choosing not to support that with their hard-earned money (I suspect you wouldn't have a problem with it), but instead you chose to make a dismissive comment that sidesteps having to consider the issue at all.

One or two people that I'm aware of made mistakes or dubious comments about the content of the novel, and you spent the rest of the thread harping on that as if everyone who disagrees with you had made the same mistake or had never read the novel. No one has advocated for taking away Mr. Card's First Amendment right to free speech (though a couple have explained the different perspectives and limitations on free speech in their own countries), yet you've spent most of the thread harping on that too as if that's the main argument people have been making.

It would just be nice if you could actually engage with people based on what they've actually said instead of the fantasyland transcript you seem to be reading from.
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Old July 11 2013, 02:04 PM   #203
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Locutus of Bored wrote:
It's not just about what you wrote there, though that's part of the sidestepping issue I've been talking about
I haven't sidestepped anything. I've agreed with certain people, disagreed with others, and given my views in as much detail as I feel compelled to. Debating with others on this issue generally tests my patience, but I have been respectful and tried to meet people at least halfway.

If you wanted engage his point honestly, you could have imagined a what if scenario where Fred Phelps (or a fictional person who shared his views, tactics, and infamy) actually did put out a movie and how you would feel about supporting that
I see no reason why I should ever feel the need to humour a liberal's fantasy of self-suffering but so be it.

If Fred Phelps wrote one of the most significant sci-fi novels of the modern era, and it was made in to a movie I thought looked somewhat interesting, from which he would gain a share of the profits, then I would think little of boycotting it. I feel the people who do such acts are by and large hypocrites, likely eating meat from animals that have suffered pain, wearing clothes made by children in torturous conditions, need I even go on...

Giving up those comforts however, would actually show a certain degree of dedication and effort to their supposed cause. Instead, people try to pass off not seeing a movie they know nothing about, based on a book they've never read, by a man they know nothing of, as an act of political protest. It is laughable in its laziness and dishonesty.

Obviously I'm not referring to people who aren't like these people, but a few posters in this thread are clearly ignorant of the matter at hand, know nothing of Card or Ender's Game, and I feel obliged to call them on it.
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Old July 11 2013, 02:19 PM   #204
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

So nobody should ever take a stand on anything they believe in, unless they take a stand on every other injustice in the world at the same time?



What a joke.
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Old July 11 2013, 02:20 PM   #205
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Pingfah wrote: View Post
So nobody should ever take a stand on anything they believe in, unless they take a stand on every other injustice in the world at the same time?



What a joke.
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Old July 11 2013, 02:21 PM   #206
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
I see no reason why I should ever feel the need to humour a liberal's fantasy of self-suffering but so be it.
Okay, Homer.



If Fred Phelps wrote one of the most significant sci-fi novels of the modern era, and it was made in to a movie I thought looked somewhat interesting, from which he would gain a share of the profits, then I would think little of boycotting it. I feel the people who do such acts are by and large hypocrites, likely eating meat from animals that have suffered pain, wearing clothes made by children in torturous conditions, need I even go on...

Giving up those comforts however, would actually show a certain degree of dedication and effort to their supposed cause. Instead, people try to pass off not seeing a movie they know nothing about, based on a book they've never read, by a man they know nothing of, as an act of political protest. It is laughable in its laziness and dishonesty.

Obviously I'm not referring to people who aren't like these people, but a few posters in this thread are clearly ignorant of the matter at hand, know nothing of Card or Ender's Game, and I feel obliged to call them on it.
What's amazing to me is, even after I and others directly point out the ridiculous tactics and arguments you've used, you're still so oblivious that you have to go right on using them in the next post.

It shouldn't be an exclusively liberal issue, but you cry "liberals!" again. Seriously, you're a broken record.

It's not a problem of most people not knowing the book, yet that's the main focus of your complaint again.

Pingfah didn't mention Phelps making a scifi movie or being an established scific author, yet that's how you have to frame the argument.

You're debate skills and tactics are a joke.
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Old July 11 2013, 02:22 PM   #207
Nagisa Furukawa
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
If you wanted engage his point honestly, you could have imagined a what if scenario where Fred Phelps (or a fictional person who shared his views, tactics, and infamy) actually did put out a movie and how you would feel about people choosing not to support that with their hard-earned money (I suspect you wouldn't have a problem with it)
I don't see why you're so adamant to get this fictional, not-actually-happening scenario "answered" but I'll give mine straight and blunt if you think DalekJim is side-stepping.

I'd have no problem seeing that movie. I don't think when I pay someone for a service (be it bringing me food, fixing my roof or making a movie for me to enjoy) that their political views have anything to do with the service I'm paying them for. I don't feel bad for lining their pockets because I'm not paying them for expressing an opinion; I'm paying them for the service and how well they do it. I'm sure I've had people fix my plumbing by men who think women should stay in the kitchen, bought candy at a store whose owners think all Mexicans should be kicked out of the US. Nor do I think that their vocalness on these issues should matter either. If someone takes my money and gives it to a racist/sexist/homophobic organization and I don't know, they're doing it all the same and I don't think I should punish the person who is open about what they believe, even if I don't agree, just because they're not keeping their mouth shut. So yes, I dunno about DalekJim, but I would see a movie by Fred Phelps if it looks interesting and well-made (all of this is under the assumption it's something like Ender's Game, something completely irrelevant to Phelps' opinions on homosexuality, correct?), disagreeing with him on what he spends the majority of his time doing while not feeling bad about giving him $7 for a product that has nothing to do with his homophobia.

Does that answer your question?
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Old July 11 2013, 02:23 PM   #208
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Hey look, it's Mr Benn's shopkeeper!
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Old July 11 2013, 02:24 PM   #209
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Ender's Game, the book, is awesome. The sequels were a downward spiral.

Card's activism does have the expected result of people avoiding his movie, and he has himself to blame for that. But, boycotting his movie and thinking that you're embracing free speech and being noble is pretty silly.

Wasn't everyone up in arms when some guy supposedly fired an employee for having an Obama bumper sticker?
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Old July 11 2013, 02:26 PM   #210
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
Card's defenders here and elsewhere appear pretty uninformed of or unwilling to examine what he's actually said - and worked for.

In any event, as posted elsewhere here's David Gerrold's response to Card's butthurt:

Puh-leeze.

After twenty years of despicably virulent homophobia ... no. This is just another detestable characterization of LGBT people -- that we are intolerant.

Intolerant? Of people who want to lock us up, put us in concentration camps, deny us our civil rights? Intolerant? Are you fucking kidding me?

You want me to be tolerant, Scott? First be one of those people who understands. Or to put it bluntly -- get your fucking foot off my neck, then we'll talk tolerance.

See, Scott -- I don't dislike you. I honestly don't. I think you're a very interesting author and you've turned out some works I admire. But you've made PR Mistake Number One. You've sided with hate-mongers. You've targeted a minority and you've characterized yourself as the righteous warrior. That gives you a short-term gain and a long-term loss. Look up Father Coughlin and Anita Bryant and Kirk Cameron.

Now you've made PR Mistake Number Two -- instead of honestly and sincerely apologizing for the hurt you have caused others, you have doubled down. You have played the martyr card, arguing that you are the victim.

What this demonstrates is that you have no idea of what the issue really is. It's about the 1138 rights, privileges, benefits, and obligations attendant to the civil contract of marriage. It's about social security benefits and inheritance and child custody and joint taxation and deathbed decisions and hospital visitation and adoption and community property and all the other things that you and your wife take for granted. It's about equality in the eyes of the law.

This is the goal that women set out to achieve when they first demanded the right to vote. This is the goal that Dr. Martin Luther King set out to achieve for African-Americans and other minorities when he started the Montgomery bus boycott. This is the goal that Harvey Milk set out to achieve when he opposed CA's Prop 6 and when he ran for the San Francisco Board of Supervisors.

Our nation was founded on the idea that "we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men (people) are created equal, endowed with certain inalienable rights -- and that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

Your public statements, Orson Scott Card, put you on the wrong side of that declaration. Until you recognize that your public utterances have been at the service of bigotry and prejudice, there can be no redemption for you in the eyes of the LGBT community. Or anyone else, for that matter.
I'm going to buy some Gerrold Kindle books for that. Thanks, David!
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