RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,232
Posts: 5,406,078
Members: 24,762
Currently online: 618
Newest member: PaulHicks

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Time’s Orphan
By: Michelle on Aug 30

September-October Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Lee Passes
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 19 2013, 04:35 PM   #181
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

^Actually Smallville's Jonathan Kent was awesome, and I hated it when they killed him off for no good reason other than slavish imitation of the Donner movie. I've liked many incarnations of Jonathan, but that man Kevin Costner played in MoS was not any Jonathan Kent I recognize.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 19 2013, 04:35 PM   #182
DWF
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Christopher wrote: View Post

The really important part of the Donner origin story isn't Jonathan dying -- it's Jonathan teaching his son that he was here for a reason, that his powers needed to be directed toward a good purpose.
And Costner's version told Clark to find his destiny no matter how long it took.
__________________
The greatest science fiction series of all time is
Doctor Who! And I'll take you all on, one-by-one
or all in a bunch to back it up!"
--- Harlan Ellison, from his introduction
to the PINNACLE series of Doctor Who books
DWF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 19 2013, 05:02 PM   #183
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Actually Smallville's Jonathan Kent was awesome, and I hated it when they killed him off for no good reason other than slavish imitation of the Donner movie. I've liked many incarnations of Jonathan, but that man Kevin Costner played in MoS was not any Jonathan Kent I recognize.
Ah, OK. I only watched a total of about 10 - 15 episodes of Smallville, and it seemed like Johnathon was always making misguided decisions and from the Trailers for MoS, it seemed like they cranked that aspect up to 10
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 19 2013, 05:58 PM   #184
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Honestly, I don't remember the specific plot points of Smallville that well. I just remember liking John Schneider in the role. (And of course Annette O'Toole as Martha.)
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 19 2013, 06:23 PM   #185
davejames
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Sac, Ca
Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Christopher wrote: View Post
I just don't accept that the death of a parent is somehow an obligatory part of every fictional character's backstory. That's too formulaic. Superman got by in comics and TV just fine for over 20 years with both adoptive parents alive -- obviously it is possible to tell good Superman stories without orphaning him a second time. It. Is. Not. Required.
I don't really see it as formulaic at all. People lose their parents all the time; it's a part of normal human experience, so it only makes sense that eventually Clark would have to go through it as well. Not to mention that in most tellings, the Kents were already up there in age when they discovered Clark, so the likelihood is even greater that it would happen before he left home.

Plus we're talking about the first superhero here. I think there have to be allowances for certain things seeming "formulaic", since a lot of them were originated with this character.
davejames is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 19 2013, 07:34 PM   #186
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

davejames wrote: View Post
I don't really see it as formulaic at all. People lose their parents all the time; it's a part of normal human experience, so it only makes sense that eventually Clark would have to go through it as well.
But lots of people don't lose their parents, at least not while they're in the prime of life. In this day and age, there are plenty of people in their 30s and 40s and even 50s who still have both parents alive and well. So yes, obviously, losing parents does happen, but my point is that it doesn't always happen, that there shouldn't be an absolute requirement that every fictional character ever has to have at least one dead parent.


Not to mention that in most tellings, the Kents were already up there in age when they discovered Clark, so the likelihood is even greater that it would happen before he left home.
In most tellings prior to 1986. Because, as I've already explained, when Superman was created, life expectancies were lower. By the time the late '80s rolled around and Superman's backstory was being rebooted, there were a lot more adults who still had both parents alive, and so that's how Superman's story was told in the comics for well over 20 years, in the 1988 animated series, in Lois and Clark, and in Superman: The Animated Series. And while Smallville did eventually kill Jonathan, it most assuredly did not depict him and Martha as being "already up there in age," but instead portrayed them as quite robust. John Schneider and Annette O'Toole were respectively 41 and 49 when the series began.

So no, it's not "in most tellings." It's only in most older tellings. And that's my whole problem with the way productions like Superman Returns and Smallville take all their cues from Richard Donner's movie -- because they're ignoring the decades of progress the franchise has made since then.


Plus we're talking about the first superhero here. I think there have to be allowances for certain things seeming "formulaic", since a lot of them were originated with this character.
You're talking as though we haven't actually had over two decades of successful storytelling -- countless comics, two animated series, and one live-action series -- in which both Jonathan and Martha were alive during Clark's adult years. It has worked. It can work. It isn't even the exception to the rule any longer -- it has been the rule for most of the past quarter-century, and it's only in the past few years that the old-school approach of killing off Jonathan has begun to make a comeback. Clearly, indisputably, it is optional. It is not obligatory.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 19 2013, 07:43 PM   #187
Captaindemotion
Vice Admiral
 
Captaindemotion's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

I agree with Christopher. Batman is an orphan, Spider-man is an orphan and lost his uncle Ben, Tony Stark's father died young in the cinematic version, James Bond is an orphan, Bourne has no family (that he remembers), Wolverine has no family, Captain America's family are presumably dead, Harry Potter is an orphan, the Starks lost their father and mother in GOT, Kirk's dad and Spock's mum died in ST'09.

The whole losing a parent thing seems to have become such a cliche of late. It might have been nice to keep Jonathan around in the MOS-verse.
__________________
Hodor!!!!!!!
Captaindemotion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 19 2013, 07:59 PM   #188
DWF
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Jonathan Kent is a mentor and in following the Joseph Campbell mode a mentor normally dies, the only way a hero can be greater than their teacher is forthe teacher to die.
__________________
The greatest science fiction series of all time is
Doctor Who! And I'll take you all on, one-by-one
or all in a bunch to back it up!"
--- Harlan Ellison, from his introduction
to the PINNACLE series of Doctor Who books
DWF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 19 2013, 08:04 PM   #189
Captaindemotion
Vice Admiral
 
Captaindemotion's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

^but isn't that achieved already with Jor-El's death?
__________________
Hodor!!!!!!!
Captaindemotion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 19 2013, 08:23 PM   #190
theenglish
Rear Admiral
 
theenglish's Avatar
 
Location: Suriname
Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
I agree with Christopher. Batman is an orphan, Spider-man is an orphan and lost his uncle Ben, Tony Stark's father died young in the cinematic version, James Bond is an orphan, Bourne has no family (that he remembers), Wolverine has no family, Captain America's family are presumably dead, Harry Potter is an orphan, the Starks lost their father and mother in GOT, Kirk's dad and Spock's mum died in ST'09.

The whole losing a parent thing seems to have become such a cliche of late. It might have been nice to keep Jonathan around in the MOS-verse.
But in this version, Jonathan isn't really a "mentor" figure. His role is more of the father of an "exceptional" child. He doesn't really have any answers for Clark--other than to keep his powers a secret.

What he does offer Clark is a symbol of humanity, and that part the movie did quite well. As a father, I often feel like I am stumbling along trying to find the right things to saw or the right answers to my kids questions and, in that sense, I really enjoyed this version of Jonathan Kent. What Jonathan does give Clark is an unconditional love and support--and that is really his role in this movie. I really loved the scene in the barn and at the truck, and I hope we get more flashbacks in future movies and see more of the father-son relationship.
theenglish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 19 2013, 08:42 PM   #191
Set Harth
Rear Admiral
 
Set Harth's Avatar
 
Location: Police State
Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
Wolverine has no family
Other than Victor, that is.
__________________
"Your advertising's just dandy. Folks'd never guess you ain't got a thing to sell."
Set Harth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 19 2013, 08:44 PM   #192
Captaindemotion
Vice Admiral
 
Captaindemotion's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

^ See, I feel basically like you but would just have liked them to keep Jonathan around to continue to give Clark that support, not just via flashbacks. (@theenglish)
__________________
Hodor!!!!!!!
Captaindemotion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 19 2013, 09:02 PM   #193
Captaindemotion
Vice Admiral
 
Captaindemotion's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
Wolverine has no family
Other than Victor, that is.
I forgot that! But not quite the Waltons, are they?!
__________________
Hodor!!!!!!!
Captaindemotion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 19 2013, 09:26 PM   #194
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
I agree with Christopher. Batman is an orphan, Spider-man is an orphan and lost his uncle Ben, Tony Stark's father died young in the cinematic version, James Bond is an orphan, Bourne has no family (that he remembers), Wolverine has no family, Captain America's family are presumably dead, Harry Potter is an orphan, the Starks lost their father and mother in GOT, Kirk's dad and Spock's mum died in ST'09.

The whole losing a parent thing seems to have become such a cliche of late. It might have been nice to keep Jonathan around in the MOS-verse.
Makes me wonder if the creative minds have all some sort of father issues.
JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 19 2013, 09:38 PM   #195
DWF
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
^but isn't that achieved already with Jor-El's death?
The real Jor-El had no contact with the grown Kal-El but his hologram did and that was of course after Jonathan's death.
__________________
The greatest science fiction series of all time is
Doctor Who! And I'll take you all on, one-by-one
or all in a bunch to back it up!"
--- Harlan Ellison, from his introduction
to the PINNACLE series of Doctor Who books
DWF is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
superman

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:23 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.