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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old July 7 2013, 02:57 PM   #16
Kinokima
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Re: Star trek final frontier directors cut finished

Christopher wrote: View Post
What? Sybok was a full Vulcan. We were told in the film that he was the son of Sarek and a "Vulcan princess." And since we know that Vulcans are betrothed as children, it's reasonable that Sarek had a Vulcan wife before he married Amanda.
I didn't mean Sybok wasn't full Vulcan. I meant he was Spock's Half-Brother. I thought the idea of Spock suddenly having another family member out of blue was bad writing.

And the whole "emotional" thing didn't work for me either. In fact there was nothing Vulcan about Sybok at all. Not that I am saying every Vulcan has to be like Spock but there was nothing that made Sybok seem anything but a zealot of a human, not Vulcan.

From reading Leonard Nimoy's autobiography I got the notion that he also didn't like the idea as when he talked about his problems with the Final Frontier script he mentioned it with a list of problems (religious zealot who just happens to be Spock's 1/2 brother).



And Sybok's rogue philosophy helps explain why Sarek disowned Spock for going into Starfleet, why they went 18 years without speaking as father and son. Maybe Sarek was afraid that Spock was following the same path that Sybok had and would bring similar shame to the family.
It might explain it but it doesn't mean this was the "best explanation" or the only explanation possible.
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Old July 7 2013, 03:03 PM   #17
Relayer1
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Re: Star trek final frontier directors cut finished

I really can't see any tweaking helping this movie. It's beyond saving, the plot was just awful...
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Old July 7 2013, 03:11 PM   #18
Christopher
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Re: Star trek final frontier directors cut finished

Kinokima wrote: View Post
I never said Sybok wasn't full Vulcan. I said he was Spock's Half-Brother.
Maybe that's what you meant to say, but what you actually wrote -- this is a direct copy-and-paste from your post -- was "an emotional 1/2 Vulcan brother." I can't read your mind, only your words.


I thought the idea of Spock suddenly having another family member out of blue was bad writing.
It was contrived, sure, but I feel Luckinbill was effective enough and sympathetic enough that he sold it. Maybe a different actor wouldn't have, but he did, at least for me.


And the whole "emotional" thing didn't work for me either. In fact there was nothing Vulcan about Sybok at all. Not that I am saying every Vulcan has to be like Spock but there was nothing that made Sybok seem anything but a zealot of a human, not Vulcan.
People seem to forget that Vulcan logic is learned, not inborn. Intrinsically, Vulcans are even more emotional than humans, which is why they need to control themselves so totally. And it makes sense that some Vulcans would reject that cultural standard of logic. After all, the society only adopted it less than 2000 years ago. For most of Vulcan history, they were all freely, wildly emotional. The Romulans -- who are still members of the Vulcan species by genetics, just a different cultural branch thereof -- are all freely emotional too.

Besides, Sybok evidently had a form of telepathy, given how he could hypnotize people into following him and give them illusory visions of "their pain." Telepathy is much more a Vulcan trait than a human one.


And Sybok's rogue philosophy helps explain why Sarek disowned Spock for going into Starfleet, why they went 18 years without speaking as father and son. Maybe Sarek was afraid that Spock was following the same path that Sybok had and would bring similar shame to the family.
It might explain it but it doesn't mean this was the "best explanation" or the only explanation possible.
I never said it was either of those things. I just meant that it can work reasonably well as an explanation. I grant that it was kind of melodramatic (though no worse than some of the melodrama TOS threw us), but it was reconcilable with what we knew before.
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Old July 7 2013, 03:35 PM   #19
Kinokima
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Re: Star trek final frontier directors cut finished

Christopher wrote: View Post
Maybe that's what you meant to say, but what you actually wrote -- this is a direct copy-and-paste from your post -- was "an emotional 1/2 Vulcan brother." I can't read your mind, only your words.
Okay apologies my grammar was a little off, I should have wrote a an emotional Vulcan 1/2 brother. But I don't think what I wrote was that confusing, other posters seemed to understand what I meant. Still my mistake!


It was contrived, sure, but I feel Luckinbill was effective enough and sympathetic enough that he sold it. Maybe a different actor wouldn't have, but he did, at least for me.
Like I said I don't mind the actor and I think he did what he could with not a very good script. But the whole notion of Spock just suddenly having this brother showing up didn't work for me.

I also read that DC Fontana (who came up with the idea of Sarek, Amanda, etc) also wasn't happy with suddenly adding a new member to Spock's family.

What can I say I am not a fan of the "long lost family member" storyline, especially not for such an established and iconic character like Spock.


People seem to forget that Vulcan logic is learned, not inborn. Intrinsically, Vulcans are even more emotional than humans, which is why they need to control themselves so totally. And it makes sense that some Vulcans would reject that cultural standard of logic. After all, the society only adopted it less than 2000 years ago. For most of Vulcan history, they were all freely, wildly emotional. The Romulans -- who are still members of the Vulcan species by genetics, just a different cultural branch thereof -- are all freely emotional too.
I don't forget this. I understand Vulcans have emotions they just work to suppress them. My problem isn't so much that Sybok rejected the Vulcan's philosophy, more that Sybok came off like a "human" religious zealot (albeit somewhat of a sympathetic one). So my question is if the Vulcan didn't suppress their emotions would they be just like humans? Somehow that doesn't work for me.

And the Romulans are a good example of how they can be different from the Vulcans but still seem alien to me.

Besides, Sybok evidently had a form of telepathy, given how he could hypnotize people into following him and give them illusory visions of "their pain." Telepathy is much more a Vulcan trait than a human one.
Well this whole power was also pretty silly to me. It just seemed a bit much.

Even though I liked some of the scenes that resulted: learning a bit more about McCoy (although it was too little too late) & seeing the scene of Spock's birth was a powerful scene. Although, I also agree with Nimoy that he accepted who he was in previous movies and this was not needed.

But yes Sybok had an alien ability that doesn't mean he felt alien to me.

I never said it was either of those things. I just meant that it can work reasonably well as an explanation. I grant that it was kind of melodramatic (though no worse than some of the melodrama TOS threw us), but it was reconcilable with what we knew before.
And I am not denying that TOS has some melodramatic scenes and bad writing throughout its run as well.

If you mean it explains Sarek's behavior to Spock then yes I will grant you that. But I am sure they could have come up with a stronger explanation.


Look if Sybok worked for you that is fine. He didn't work for me. And I don't even hate Final Frontier like some fans. I actually really enjoy all the Kirk/Spock/McCoy scenes that are in the movie. And I am just grateful that Shatner didn't get his way and McCoy and Spock didn't betray Kirk too (which was how it was originally supposed to go).
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Old July 7 2013, 03:36 PM   #20
trevanian
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Re: Star trek final frontier directors cut finished

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Mage wrote: View Post
So, they're going to talk to CBS. After they did all the work. And if CBS says no, then what?
CBS could also take it and run with it without having to pay any of them for the work they did.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Besides, people would probably accuse it of ripping off the Galaxy Quest rock monster. And yes, I know that rock monster was a reference to the one that was supposed to be in ST V, but others wouldn't know that.
That should never be a reason against restoring a scene. It's not Star Trek V's fault that ten years later someone else took that idea and remade it.
That's kind of like reviewers that knocked DUNE for ripping off SW visuals when it was the novel DUNE's own iconography that SW referenced.

I imagine when CHILDHOOD'S END gets done folks will be saying 'visual ripoff of V and INDEPENDENCE DAY' when the ships hover above the world's cities too.
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Old July 7 2013, 06:20 PM   #21
CaptPapa
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Re: Star trek final frontier directors cut finished

Aside from the 'how can it be a director's cut if the director isn't doing it' issue - what's this about new special effects? Did I read that correctly? Someone (or group) has paid for new special effects for a major motion picture on the off-chance that the studio will come along and pay for it after the fact? Either I'm missing something, or I need some waders . . .
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Old July 7 2013, 06:31 PM   #22
BillJ
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Re: Star trek final frontier directors cut finished

That CGI looks really rough.
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Old July 7 2013, 06:51 PM   #23
tmosler
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Re: Star trek final frontier directors cut finished

actualy most of the videos of the fx were not finished and have been improved. DigitalBits editor Bill Hunt has described the directors cut as "darmn impressive".
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Old July 7 2013, 06:53 PM   #24
LOKAI of CHERON
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Re: Star trek final frontier directors cut finished

Not wishing to knock the artists who put their time and energy into it, but the CG on display in the link provided at Trek Web is amateur hour. Based on that, I MUCH prefer the FX from the original.
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Old July 7 2013, 07:12 PM   #25
tmosler
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Re: Star trek final frontier directors cut finished

The CGI from the video look like CGI but they look well done. No matter what the new effects like it is much better then the original effects which were rushed, done on a small budget, and unable to secure ILM to do the visual effects shatner was forced to turn to Bran Ferren had previously done the special effects for Little Shop Of Horrors and Altered Beas. In the end the old special effects fell short.
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Old July 7 2013, 07:23 PM   #26
LOKAI of CHERON
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Re: Star trek final frontier directors cut finished

tmosler wrote: View Post
The CGI from the video look like CGI but they look well done. No matter what the new effects like it is much better then the original effects which were rushed, done on a small budget, and unable to secure ILM to do the visual effects shatner was forced to turn to Bran Ferren had previously done the special effects for Little Shop Of Horrors and Altered Beas. In the end the old special effects fell short.
I agree the FX in the orginal movie is fairly weak in some shots. I agree the CG in the link given looks like CG.

I do not agree they are better than the original "no matter what". It looks OK, competently done and a great effort - I couldn't do it! But it's well short of a standard good enough for a movie of TFF's ilk.
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Old July 7 2013, 07:49 PM   #27
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Re: Star trek final frontier directors cut finished

Kinokima wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
I felt Sybok was the most effective thing about the movie.
The actor himself was fine but I just could not get behind the idea that Spock suddenly had an emotional 1/2 Vulcan brother.
I never understood why some people were against Spock having a half brother. Before TOS episode "Amok Time" we did not know about Spock's wife T'Pring and yet people don't complain about that, they accept it. Before this episode Spock never mentioned having a wife. So Spock having a half brother was not a problem with ST5 for me. I remember Majel Barret-Roddenberry complaining about us not knowing Spock had a half brother at a Star Trek Convention a year or two before the film was released.

We also did not know about Kirk having a brother, Sam, until he mentioned it in an episode of TOS ("What Are Little Girls Made Of?"). Later, we see his brother dead in TOS episode "Operation - Annihilate!". People never complained about this either, they accepted it. So why is it acceptable for Kirk to suddenly have brother and it not acceptable for Spock to have a half brother?


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Old July 7 2013, 07:56 PM   #28
Kinokima
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Re: Star trek final frontier directors cut finished

Navigator_NCC2120 wrote: View Post
I never understood why some people were against Spock having a half brother. Before TOS episode "Amok Time" we did not know about Spock's wife T'Pring and yet people don't complain about that, they accept it. Before this episode Spock never mentioned having a wife. So Spock having a half brother was not a problem with ST5 for me. I remember Majel Barret-Roddenberry complaining about us not knowing Spock had a half brother at a Star Trek Convention a year or two before the film was released.

Amok Time is the 1st episode of the 2nd season. The series was still new and things were still being established about Spock at this point. Episodes such as Amok Time, Journey to Babel, the mind meld, nerve pinch, his logic were clever things that established Spock's character.

In fact you can argue that of the main 3, Spock was the most established character (especially by the time of the 5th movie)

Now suddenly years later you suddenly add a long lost family member for Spock. It doesn't really add anything important to Spock. Okay it might explain why Sarek was so hard on him. But I think the fact that Spock was Sarek's only child could explain that just as well.

Sybok dies at the end of the story but did having this 1/2 brother suddenly repeapper in his life and then die really do anything for Spock's character? I'd say no and that is my problem. Sybok for me adds nothing to the story except to add something that wasn't needed in the first place.


edit: As for Kirk's brother in Operation not a really huge fan of that either but we weren't discussing that episode. It was also still early in the series run when we don't yet know these characters as well.
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Old July 7 2013, 08:01 PM   #29
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Re: Star trek final frontier directors cut finished

BillJ wrote: View Post
How is it the Directors Cut if the director of the film didn't work on it?
This is my question.
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Old July 7 2013, 08:02 PM   #30
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Re: Star trek final frontier directors cut finished

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
I really can't see any tweaking helping this movie. It's beyond saving, the plot was just awful...
I totally agree with you and said something similar to this about a year ago when the topic was brought up in this forum.


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