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Old July 3 2013, 12:57 AM   #61
1001001
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

tomalak301 wrote: View Post
1001001 wrote: View Post
theblitz wrote: View Post
Actually, Judaism is not afraid of it at all.
Same way as we are not afraid of cosmology and all that is learned from it.
Same with Catholicism.

I think the short answer is that people who take the Bible (or any religious text) literally find comfort in the certainty. Concrete, black or white thinking avoids the anxiety of doubt.
Didn't Pope John Paul II come out in favor of evolution? I'm not sure what Francis says about it, but I've always thought that they should go both hand in hand. It's all a matter of interpretation.
I was taught evolution by priests in high school. That was in the early 80's.

It wasn't even given much discussion. It was matter-of-fact.

There is no contradiction between evolution and Catholic faith.
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Old July 3 2013, 01:02 AM   #62
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

And this is evidence that what I said is correct. Evolutionists go just as apeshit about creationism, or more so, as do creationists over evolution.

How about just being happy with yourself and leave the rest of us alone? :P
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Old July 3 2013, 01:06 AM   #63
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Take the calls for Creationism in the classroom away to their churches, then, and leave public schools alone. Government has no business imposing religion on people.
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Old July 3 2013, 01:09 AM   #64
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
And this is evidence that what I said is correct. Evolutionists go just as apeshit about creationism, or more so, as do creationists over evolution.

How about just being happy with yourself and leave the rest of us alone? :P
You're making your own distinct separations and declaring yourself correct. It doesn't work that way.
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Old July 3 2013, 01:18 AM   #65
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Carcazoid wrote: View Post
And this is evidence that what I said is correct. Evolutionists go just as apeshit about creationism, or more so, as do creationists over evolution.

How about just being happy with yourself and leave the rest of us alone? :P
You're making your own distinct separations and declaring yourself correct. It doesn't work that way.
I said evidence, not conclusion.

Just because people don't agree with you it doesn't mean they're wrong. Or that you are. Unless you are. In which case ... forget it. You'll understand when you understand, and not a minute before.

And with that, I'm done. Y'all have a nice day now, hear?
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Old July 3 2013, 02:13 AM   #66
The Festivus Awakens
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

tomalak301 wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
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I'd like to think that creation was perfect. How we got some imperfect was we as a society took that creation, spit all over it, fell in love with temptation and here we are. A person is smart. People are stupid disgusting ingrates.
What an awful, depressing foundation to build a belief system on, and a terrible outlook on your fellow human beings. Original sin is questionable enough as it is, but your personal interpretation turns the ugliness up to eleven.
Maybe I don't understand what you mean, but why?
Why is calling people "stupid disgusting ingrates" a terrible foundation for a belief system and a awful way of looking at things? Well, for one, it's not even based on Biblical teachings, it's just your own personal negative outlook. The original sin and temptation stuff is all there, but not the everyone are stupid disgusting ingrates thing; that's your own addendum.

Why help people like that? Just because you're told to? Why respect them if they're so far beyond respect? Why even get up in the morning if the world is so terrible? I can see why some Christians are so baffled by the fact that atheists manage to get by just fine with their own morality absent of religious guidance; when those Christians look so negatively upon their fellow human beings I guess you would need a religious text to tell you not to kill them or steal from them, because they're totally worthless in your eyes.

I've just seen time and again how nasty society can be. I'd like to think society can improve and it can be great, but there is so much negativity in this world that we are far from it. We've seen so much ugliness in the last few years alone that it's hard to be optimistic, even though I probably should be.

Of course maybe we're talking about two different things and what I said has no relation to this thread at all, which might be possible. I was asked how things got so imperfect and I started thinking about our society as a whole and all the negatives that come with it like Crime, school shootings, even being devided on opinions so much that people would attack one another for it. The first thing I thought of too were the Vancouver riots after the Stanley Cup. I mean it was just a game, but it was a game that burned the city to the ground. That's unfortunately the nasty side of our society, and you're right, it is ugly.
Crime is down across the board. School shootings, awful as they are, are extremely rare. More people have more civil rights, educational opportunities, and prosperity than ever before. We cure or mitigate the effects of terrible diseases all the time. People live longer than ever. Genocides are relatively rare. War is on the decline. Political alliances keep tyranny mostly in check. National and international charitable work, medical care, and disaster relief is at an all time high. Terrorism is on the decline. We've never been more interconnected and able to educate one another on our differences and similarities in order to foster greater peace and understanding. We have wondrous technologies at our disposal. Never before has it been easier to acquire knowledge about any given subject. Never have more people been able to share their own works of art, music, etc. across numerous media with a larger audience. The threat of global nuclear war is extremely unlikely.

Does that mean terrible things don't happen any more? Of course not. Does that mean we shouldn't still strive to improve ourselves on a daily basis? Of course not. Does that mean there aren't still environmental threats, human conflict and crime, and disease that we need to try and prevent or reduce? Of course not. Does that mean there aren't lots of people hurting and struggling every day just to get by? Of course not. But all things considered, the world is doing pretty damn good compared to how it has been many times in the past.

If drunken Stanley Cup riots in Vancouver (which didn't even come close to "burning the city to the ground," Captain Hyperbole) are the worst example of humanity that you can think of off the top of your head, I think we're doing okay. And there are so many examples of people doing so much good for others that counteract that story. How about the fact that over 15,000 local volunteers (many taking off work) organized via social media the very same day and that all the garbage in the street was cleaned up from the street by 10:00 AM the next morning and broken windows were boarded up with messages of apology and encouragement? That's people --more people than were involved in the riots by far-- helping out their fellow human beings in spontaneous response to a terrible incident.

How about the airlift and sealift of relief supplies from around the world in response to the Japanese earthquake/tsunami, the Haiti earthquake, the Indian Ocean tsunami, etc? People of faith or not of faith do the right thing in times of crisis, and even when it's not, the vast majority of people are good and simply want to do right by their families, friends, coworkers, and acquaintances. You should try and give them a little more credit.
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Old July 3 2013, 02:14 AM   #67
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Ok, Disgusting Ingrates was a terrible thing to say and I apologize. There are so many great people, yet it seems like there are about as equal number of bad people. There was a time where I did think that a person was smart but people were stupid., However, like you said, Locutus, that might be something I need to reevaluate. There is still so much crap in this world though, and I do wish more good news was reported.

As for the worst of humanity, going into an elementary school and shooting 26 innocent people, most of whom haven't had a chance to live is a lot better recent example. I do wish the News would cover the good with the bad, because you're right there is a lot of good in this world. There is also a lot of bad, which is very unfortunate, especially in the time we live in where we should be better than that.
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Old July 3 2013, 02:42 AM   #68
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
And this is evidence that what I said is correct. Evolutionists go just as apeshit about creationism, or more so, as do creationists over evolution.

How about just being happy with yourself and leave the rest of us alone? :P
I only have a problem with teaching creationism in a science class. If it were in a comparative religions class in the social studies department or as part of a mythology course in the language arts department, I would have no problem with it. As long as multiple creation stories are discussed. To treat one supernatural creation story as more authoritative than another would violate the establishment clause of the first amendment.
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Old July 3 2013, 03:03 AM   #69
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
God created the universe and all that is in it. Whether he placed Man and Woman in a paradisical setting is irelevant. It's all about faith.

I see as many evolutionists get nuts over creation as I do creationists get nuts over evolution.

The thing is, with faith one can accept that there are things that mankind can't understand, no matter how far science advances. That's not a slam at scientists or evolutionists.

There are simply things in the universe beyond human comprehension. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't keep trying, but it does mean that some things should not be tampered with. It's when humans become arrogant in the face of God that we get into trouble. Humility and the awareness of consequences of our actions is what keeps us from destoying ourselves.
Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Shazam! wrote: View Post
The burden of proof lies with you.
Not so much. I accept that there are things that we can't comprehend. I state my beliefs and stand behind them. It's called "faith."

If you want to challenge that, go ahead. But don't expect me to argue the point for your entertainment.
It seems to me that people can base belief on their perception of the evidence for the belief or on their perception of the consequences of the belief.

An example of the latter: I believe that God created us and gave us His Law in the Bible. If that isn't true, then we have no way of saying what's right and wrong and people are allowed to do anything. That's why it's important to believe. Another example is Carcazoid's point that faith gives us "[h]umility and the awareness of consequences of our actions [and] keeps us from dest[r]oying ourselves."

One possible definition of faith is the disposition to base belief on consequence rather than evidence. Those who have it tend to consider it a moral virtue and beneficial; those who lack it tend to consider it a logical fallacy and harmful.

The above argument for God and the Bible is often heard from the faithful, and they seem to find it satisfying. To those who lack the faith, the argument is nonsense.

Over the course of human history, consequence-based belief and evidence-based belief (i.e., faith and non-faith) have both been adaptive in some ways and maladaptive in others. As time marches on and the body of human knowledge grows exponentially, evidence-based reasoning becomes a more powerful tool, but there is still room for the alternative. Personally, I lack faith and favor evidence-based belief, but I try to understand and see the value in those who think differently.
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Old July 3 2013, 04:48 AM   #70
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

I feel people have every right to believe as they do, and I gladly work to defend that right. Pray, believe, follow your faith as you see fit, until it collides with someone else's rights, or the overall well being of society.

Prayer is fine. Prayer in school? They can do it on their own time.
Belief in a Supreme Being is fine. Forcing it into the science class? I'll be dead set against it.
Want the Ten Commandments in the church yard? Great! Want it in the halls of a municipal court as a sign of God's Law? Nope.
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Old July 3 2013, 09:44 AM   #71
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

R. Star wrote: View Post
I dunno, why do non-believers think it's necessary to rip into believers?
Probably because some believers still want to impose their beliefs on other people, having them enshrined in laws or school curricula.

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
I perhaps hold a rather simply view Evolution is taught in science classes, whilst Creationism, Intelligent Design etc.. can be taught in Relgious Classes. Creationism, Intelligent design simply has no place in a science class.
There is a middle ground in there, somewhere.

Scientists have not proved evolution, and creationists can't prove that it didn't happen. The middle would be acknowledgement that there might be an intersect between the two.

A lot of evolutionists will not give an inch, while a lot of creationists are willing to explore it.
That's because evolution is a scientific established fact, while creationism is superstitious bullshit.

Maybe we should find some middle ground on other topics, too? Computers are powered by electric power, but there are actually poltergeists doing the calculations? Viruses and bacteria cause illnesses and infections, but it's the imbalance of the four humours that creates symptoms?

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
And this is evidence that what I said is correct. Evolutionists go just as apeshit about creationism, or more so, as do creationists over evolution.
False equivalency.

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
And with that, I'm done. Y'all have a nice day now, hear?
So when people start to actually argue with your assertions, you just quit. Very easy.
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Old July 3 2013, 09:47 AM   #72
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Evolution was known and accepted long before Darwin. Darwin's Theory of Natural Selection-- since proven by fossil evidence, molecular biology et cetera-- described one of several mechanisms of evolution. This was opposed by religious groups when it was perceived as a threat to religion being taught in public schools.

tomalak301 wrote: View Post
Ok, Disgusting Ingrates was a terrible thing to say and I apologize. There are so many great people, yet it seems like there are about as equal number of bad people. There was a time where I did think that a person was smart but people were stupid., However, like you said, Locutus, that might be something I need to reevaluate. There is still so much crap in this world though, and I do wish more good news was reported.

As for the worst of humanity, going into an elementary school and shooting 26 innocent people, most of whom haven't had a chance to live is a lot better recent example. I do wish the News would cover the good with the bad, because you're right there is a lot of good in this world. There is also a lot of bad, which is very unfortunate, especially in the time we live in where we should be better than that.
I sympathize with your feelings. But consider this: In evolutionary and geological terms, Humanity is not long down from the trees. In a blink of the eye of the universe, we have gone from just another primate to the builders of a great civilization-in-progress. Despite all the wars and murders and petty conflicts and ignorance and prejudice and hatred, we have achieved all that Locutus outlined above and more-- that means that the goodness in people must outweigh the bad by orders of magnitude. The bad stuff makes the news because it's newsworthy-- the news reports on a house that burns down because millions of houses didn't burn down.

Check out this Blog (and the books related to it). There's plenty there to make you feel better.
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Old July 3 2013, 10:03 AM   #73
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
And with that, I'm done. Y'all have a nice day now, hear?
Why are you so angry? Aren't you sort of doing a QED on the thread title?
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Old July 3 2013, 10:18 AM   #74
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

I would have slightly more respect for creationists if they would agree to teach multiple creation stories to their children but, at least in the West, it is only the Biblical creation story they want taught in schools.
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Old July 3 2013, 10:59 AM   #75
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Carcazoid wrote:
I accept that there are things that we can't comprehend. I state my beliefs and stand behind them. It's called "faith."
If you want to challenge that, go ahead. But don't expect me to argue the point for your entertainment.
ARGUMENT FROM SMUGNESS
(1) God exists.
(2) I don't give a crap whether you believe it or not; I have better things to do than to try to convince you morons.
(3) Therefore, God exists.
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