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Old July 8 2013, 12:26 AM   #271
RoJoHen
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

There is absolutely nothing contradictory about it.
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Old July 8 2013, 12:41 AM   #272
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

It's true the more angry of the Atheists, like the more angry of the Christians, give the rest of us a bad rap.

Those angry teenagers who call Richard Dawkins their lord and savior and think everybody who believes in anything supernatural is a moron. Once and for all I will say, we're not with them. They are our Pat Robertson.

There's enough unprovable about the origin in the universe it's hard to be 'More rational than thou' about faithfulness. The only thing that's impossible to tolerate is when religious people try to write their beliefs into law. Like, writing evolution out of school textbooks, or in some countries where women's rights are restricted because of religion.

And religion is not the root cause of good people doing bad things. Groupthink is the cause, the religion is only one possible cause of groupthink. When you defer responsibility for your own actions to mob, that's when good people do bad things.
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Old July 8 2013, 12:42 AM   #273
iguana_tonante
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

RyanKCR wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post
Follow with me as I explain the expression:

Without religion:
Good person will still do good things
Evil person will still do evil things

With religion:
Good person will still do good things
Good person will justify doing evil things
Evil person will still do evil things
Still contradicts and is idiotic.

It is similar to:

I never say anything that is true.
I am thinking how to explain it again in simpler terms, but it's pretty hard to have a debate with someone with such a poor command of logic.
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Old July 8 2013, 12:44 AM   #274
J. Allen
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

RyanKCR wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post

No it doesn't. Follow with me as I explain the expression:

Without religion:
Good person will still do good things
Evil person will still do evil things

With religion:
Good person will still do good things
Good person will justify doing evil things
Evil person will still do evil things
Still contradicts and is idiotic.

It is similar to:

I never say anything that is true.
No, that's not what it's saying at all.
Let me try again:

"Hello, I am a Christian, and this is the 1600s. You are a witch. I'm sorry I have to do this, but we have to burn you at the stake. If it wasn't for my faith, I wouldn't know that being a witch is so evil that witches must not be allowed to live. I will have to kill you now, the Bible commands it, and the Bible is moral and righteous, which makes this moral and righteous. I'm sorry."

See how that's not anything you just thought it was?

A religion can lead a good person to take horrible actions because they believe that their God has made it necessary. They don't have to like it, but they do it because they believe it to be just and righteous, because in their religion, their god commands it to be done as such. You are, after all, familiar with the phrase "God's ways are not our ways," are you not? That has been used to smooth over personal feelings, ones by good people, in order to justify the need to do evil as a form of good.

That's about as plain as I can make it.
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Old July 8 2013, 01:13 AM   #275
RyanKCR
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

J. Allen wrote: View Post
RyanKCR wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post

No it doesn't. Follow with me as I explain the expression:

Without religion:
Good person will still do good things
Evil person will still do evil things

With religion:
Good person will still do good things
Good person will justify doing evil things
Evil person will still do evil things
Still contradicts and is idiotic.

It is similar to:

I never say anything that is true.
No, that's not what it's saying at all.
Let me try again:

"Hello, I am a Christian, and this is the 1600s. You are a witch. I'm sorry I have to do this, but we have to burn you at the stake. If it wasn't for my faith, I wouldn't know that being a witch is so evil that witches must not be allowed to live. I will have to kill you now, the Bible commands it, and the Bible is moral and righteous, which makes this moral and righteous. I'm sorry."

See how that's not anything you just thought it was?

A religion can lead a good person to take horrible actions because they believe that their God has made it necessary. They don't have to like it, but they do it because they believe it to be just and righteous, because in their religion, their god commands it to be done as such. You are, after all, familiar with the phrase "God's ways are not our ways," are you not? That has been used to smooth over personal feelings, ones by good people, in order to justify the need to do evil as a form of good.

That's about as plain as I can make it.
That has nothing really to do with the quote. Let me explain the problem by simplifying it:

"With or without religion evil people do evil."
"With religion good people will do evil."

Your "withs" are contradicting.
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Old July 8 2013, 01:29 AM   #276
J. Allen
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

RyanKCR wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post
RyanKCR wrote: View Post

Still contradicts and is idiotic.

It is similar to:

I never say anything that is true.
No, that's not what it's saying at all.
Let me try again:

"Hello, I am a Christian, and this is the 1600s. You are a witch. I'm sorry I have to do this, but we have to burn you at the stake. If it wasn't for my faith, I wouldn't know that being a witch is so evil that witches must not be allowed to live. I will have to kill you now, the Bible commands it, and the Bible is moral and righteous, which makes this moral and righteous. I'm sorry."

See how that's not anything you just thought it was?

A religion can lead a good person to take horrible actions because they believe that their God has made it necessary. They don't have to like it, but they do it because they believe it to be just and righteous, because in their religion, their god commands it to be done as such. You are, after all, familiar with the phrase "God's ways are not our ways," are you not? That has been used to smooth over personal feelings, ones by good people, in order to justify the need to do evil as a form of good.

That's about as plain as I can make it.
That has nothing really to do with the quote. Let me explain the problem by simplifying it:

"With or without religion evil people do evil."
"With religion good people will do evil."

Your "withs" are contradicting.
No, they're not.
Look, one more time, I'm serious, because I want you to understand:


Without religion:

GOOD PERSON: "Lo, I am good, I do good things. I feed the hungry."
EVIL PERSON: "Argh, I am evil! I do evil things! I eat babies!"

With me so far? Let's go on:

With religion:

GOOD PERSON: "Lo, I am good, I do good things. My son is gay, and I love him and told him he is loved."

GOOD PERSON WHO THINKS THEY ARE DOING GOOD: "Lo, I am good, I do good things. I rejected my gay son because he is gay and the Bible forbids it, so I kicked him out and forbade contact with him because we can't succumb to sin."

EVIL PERSON: "Argh, I am evil! I do evil things! I eat babies!"

Now, before you reply, read over those really well. Study them. Let it click. A good person can do things that they believe are good, even if they are evil, simply because their religion tells them that it is evil, so they follow that religion's claims of morality and righteousness, even if in the process, they've kicked their own children out of their house, just for being human.

Countless times, I've heard the phrase, "Well, I don't have a problem with it, but it's against God's law, so it's wrong and has to be stopped." The religion has affected a good person's judgment to the point where they see their actions as moral and right, even if they are harmful and wrong, and it's all because of that religion that has affected that person.
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Old July 8 2013, 01:43 AM   #277
iguana_tonante
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Now, before you reply, read over those really well. Study them. Let it click. A good person can do things that they believe are good, even if they are evil, simply because their religion tells them that it is evil, so they follow that religion's claims of morality and righteousness, even if in the process, they've kicked their own children out of their house, just for being human.
The problem, as I might understand it, is that people like Ryan define "good" and "evil" as their religion command them, instead of as their own morality tell them.

So they are incapable of understanding how religion can make people to do evil. If the Bible says it's good, it is good. If the Bible say it's evil, it is evil.

Slaying the Philistines and collecting their foreskins? Totally fine! Steve kissing Bob? Super-evil!
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Old July 8 2013, 01:46 AM   #278
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

J. Allen wrote: View Post

A religion can lead a good person to take horrible actions because they believe that their God has made it necessary. They don't have to like it, but they do it because they believe it to be just and righteous, because in their religion, their god commands it to be done as such. You are, after all, familiar with the phrase "God's ways are not our ways," are you not? That has been used to smooth over personal feelings, ones by good people, in order to justify the need to do evil as a form of good.

That's about as plain as I can make it.
Not quite accurate. They do not do so because God commanded them to. Well, most of them don't. They do so because they know failure to do so will have social consequences. "You are seen as a witch. Therefore if I do not burn you at the stake, I will be seen as pro-witch".

The same thing happens in militaries that have nothing to do with religion. Oh, I found an unarmed enemy soldier cowering in fear hiding in a ditch. If I don't execute him right now I will be seen as pro-enemy.
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Old July 8 2013, 01:48 AM   #279
Tora Ziyal
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
And religion is not the root cause of good people doing bad things. Groupthink is the cause, the religion is only one possible cause of groupthink. When you defer responsibility for your own actions to mob, that's when good people do bad things.
Totally agree. It's the adult version of a basically good teen doing something stupid because "everyone" is doing it. With adults, the group may be religion... or a political party or an employer ("all my coworkers do it") or...
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Old July 8 2013, 01:51 AM   #280
RyanKCR
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

J. Allen wrote: View Post
RyanKCR wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post

No, that's not what it's saying at all.
Let me try again:

"Hello, I am a Christian, and this is the 1600s. You are a witch. I'm sorry I have to do this, but we have to burn you at the stake. If it wasn't for my faith, I wouldn't know that being a witch is so evil that witches must not be allowed to live. I will have to kill you now, the Bible commands it, and the Bible is moral and righteous, which makes this moral and righteous. I'm sorry."

See how that's not anything you just thought it was?

A religion can lead a good person to take horrible actions because they believe that their God has made it necessary. They don't have to like it, but they do it because they believe it to be just and righteous, because in their religion, their god commands it to be done as such. You are, after all, familiar with the phrase "God's ways are not our ways," are you not? That has been used to smooth over personal feelings, ones by good people, in order to justify the need to do evil as a form of good.

That's about as plain as I can make it.
That has nothing really to do with the quote. Let me explain the problem by simplifying it:

"With or without religion evil people do evil."
"With religion good people will do evil."

Your "withs" are contradicting.
No, they're not.
Look, one more time, I'm serious, because I want you to understand:


Without religion:

GOOD PERSON: "Lo, I am good, I do good things. I feed the hungry."
EVIL PERSON: "Argh, I am evil! I do evil things! I eat babies!"

With me so far? Let's go on:

With religion:

GOOD PERSON: "Lo, I am good, I do good things. My son is gay, and I love him and told him he is loved."

GOOD PERSON WHO THINKS THEY ARE DOING GOOD: "Lo, I am good, I do good things. I rejected my gay son because he is gay and the Bible forbids it, so I kicked him out and forbade contact with him because we can't succumb to sin."

EVIL PERSON: "Argh, I am evil! I do evil things! I eat babies!"

Now, before you reply, read over those really well. Study them. Let it click. A good person can do things that they believe are good, even if they are evil, simply because their religion tells them that it is evil, so they follow that religion's claims of morality and righteousness, even if in the process, they've kicked their own children out of their house, just for being human.

Countless times, I've heard the phrase, "Well, I don't have a problem with it, but it's against God's law, so it's wrong and has to be stopped." The religion has affected a good person's judgment to the point where they see their actions as moral and right, even if they are harmful and wrong, and it's all because of that religion that has affected that person.
The problem, if you care to really understand, is that saying in the situation of religion a good person will do good. Then saying that in a situation of religion a good person will do evil. How is that not contradictory?

You have already defined an environment will lead to an action in one statement then defined that same environment will lead to a different opposite action.

Or 1+1=2
and
1+1=0
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Old July 8 2013, 02:10 AM   #281
J. Allen
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
The problem, as I might understand it, is that people like Ryan define "good" and "evil" as their religion command them, instead of as their own morality tell them.

So they are incapable of understanding how religion can make people to do evil. If the Bible says it's good, it is good. If the Bible say it's evil, it is evil.

Slaying the Philistines and collecting their foreskins? Totally fine! Steve kissing Bob? Super-evil!
For some, I have no doubt it is exactly like that. In this case, though, I'm hoping to get across to Ryan that a good person who does evil, only does so because they believe that what they are doing is good, and when their religion presses on them that an act we consider evil is good, it makes that good person commit evil, and they don't even realize it.

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Not quite accurate. They do not do so because God commanded them to. Well, most of them don't. They do so because they know failure to do so will have social consequences. "You are seen as a witch. Therefore if I do not burn you at the stake, I will be seen as pro-witch".

The same thing happens in militaries that have nothing to do with religion. Oh, I found an unarmed enemy soldier cowering in fear hiding in a ditch. If I don't execute him right now I will be seen as pro-enemy.
Oh, I agree, that does play a major part in it. Social pressure can be just as strong as any biblical edict.

RyanKCR wrote: View Post
The problem, if you care to really understand, is that saying in the situation of religion a good person will do good. Then saying that in a situation of religion a good person will do evil. How is that not contradictory?

You have already defined an environment will lead to an action in one statement then defined that same environment will lead to a different opposite action.

Or 1+1=2
and
1+1=0
No. Just No.
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Leonard Nimoy: 1931 - 2015
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Old July 8 2013, 02:11 AM   #282
iguana_tonante
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
And religion is not the root cause of good people doing bad things. Groupthink is the cause, the religion is only one possible cause of groupthink. When you defer responsibility for your own actions to mob, that's when good people do bad things.
Totally agree. It's the adult version of a basically good teen doing something stupid because "everyone" is doing it. With adults, the group may be religion... or a political party or an employer ("all my coworkers do it") or...
This is a very good argument. Poisonous political environments (Nazism, Stalinism, just to make it obvious I am not talking about garden-variety political disagreements) have certainly brought good people to do evil things. One could argue that that kind of political indoctrination is akin to a religion, tho.

RyanKCR wrote: View Post
The problem, if you care to really understand, is that saying in the situation of religion a good person will do good. Then saying that in a situation of religion a good person will do evil. How is that not contradictory?

You have already defined an environment will lead to an action in one statement then defined that same environment will lead to a different opposite action.

Or 1+1=2
and
1+1=0
This, on the other hand, is not.

Good grief man. Let us rephrase it again.

Regardless of religion, nice people will do things thinking they are doing good (which is accurate), and bad people will do things thinking they are doing evil (again, accurately).

But because of religion (actually, quasi-religious groupthink, to accept the previous amendment), nice people can be fooled into doing evil things thinking they were doing good things.

Is that any clearer?
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Old July 8 2013, 03:25 AM   #283
RyanKCR
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
And religion is not the root cause of good people doing bad things. Groupthink is the cause, the religion is only one possible cause of groupthink. When you defer responsibility for your own actions to mob, that's when good people do bad things.
Totally agree. It's the adult version of a basically good teen doing something stupid because "everyone" is doing it. With adults, the group may be religion... or a political party or an employer ("all my coworkers do it") or...
This is a very good argument. Poisonous political environments (Nazism, Stalinism, just to make it obvious I am not talking about garden-variety political disagreements) have certainly brought good people to do evil things. One could argue that that kind of political indoctrination is akin to a religion, tho.

RyanKCR wrote: View Post
The problem, if you care to really understand, is that saying in the situation of religion a good person will do good. Then saying that in a situation of religion a good person will do evil. How is that not contradictory?

You have already defined an environment will lead to an action in one statement then defined that same environment will lead to a different opposite action.

Or 1+1=2
and
1+1=0
This, on the other hand, is not.

Good grief man. Let us rephrase it again.

Regardless of religion, nice people will do things thinking they are doing good (which is accurate), and bad people will do things thinking they are doing evil (again, accurately).

But because of religion (actually, quasi-religious groupthink, to accept the previous amendment), nice people can be fooled into doing evil things thinking they were doing good things.

Is that any clearer?
You forgot in the first park that because of religion, good people will do good. And that is where the problem lies. You are saying that religion causes good people to do good then you are saying that religion causes good people to do bad. You can't have it both ways.
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Old July 8 2013, 03:29 AM   #284
Nerys Myk
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Why not? It happens in real life.
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Old July 8 2013, 04:50 AM   #285
Darth Duck
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

RyanKCR wrote: View Post
You forgot in the first park that because of religion, good people will do good. And that is where the problem lies. You are saying that religion causes good people to do good then you are saying that religion causes good people to do bad. You can't have it both ways.
Yes, you can have it both ways because people are weird contradictory creatures.
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