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Old July 3 2013, 02:32 AM   #31
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

^ Exactly. Locarno only confessed because Wesley made him do it. If Wes hadn't spoken up, Locarno would have continued to cover it up.

Paris came clean for what he did all on his own. That alone makes the difference.
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Old July 3 2013, 02:41 AM   #32
Anwar
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

That, and Locarno tried to pin the blame on the guy who got killed. Did Paris try to blame what he did on the folks he got killed, or just say "it was an accident" before he owned up to his mistakes?
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Old July 3 2013, 03:12 AM   #33
YJAGG
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

with Dukat- he was the overseer of Bajor- and had established history to then Gul a ship from time just (to me seems odd)
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Old July 3 2013, 03:21 AM   #34
Sran
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
Sisko must have been shocked when he noticed his dad looked like a certain traitorous Admiral from TUC.
Not cannon, but how do we know that Sisko's not related to Cartwright? Nothing's ever mentioned about Sisko's grandparents that I can remember. Maybe one of them was Admiral Cartwright's son or daughter.

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Old July 3 2013, 03:34 AM   #35
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

I'm pretty sure they meant for us to think Vorik and Taurik are the same person, or at least identical twins.

As for Locarno and Paris, Locarno was expelled from the Academy. Janeway would never have use for a guy like that. Paris having actual Starfleet experience makes more sense.
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Old July 3 2013, 03:41 AM   #36
Sran
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
As for Locarno and Paris, Locarno was expelled from the Academy. Janeway would never have use for a guy like that. Paris having actual Starfleet experience makes more sense.
Attending the Academy isn't the same thing as earning a commission, but it should still qualifty as Starfleet experience. Lacarno would have basic knowledge of ship design and bridge operations. I don't know that he'd have been given a commission as quickly as Paris was, but he did have some experience.

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Old July 3 2013, 03:50 AM   #37
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I don't think Nick Lacarno was unredeemable. He was reckless and got a teammate killed, and then he covered it up. An act of recklessness followed by an act of fear. How many real people do you know who, if they really screwed up, would come forward and admit it? If he served his time in prison, then he learned from his mistake and worked earnestly to make up for it, he could absolutely be redeemed.
I actually think it wold have been more interesting if Tom Paris had been more like Nick Lacarno.

Tom always felt like a nice guy that made a mistake. They tried to paint him as the anti-hero in Caretaker, but after a few episodes he became just a nice as everyone else in the cast.

Someone like Nick would have had a harder time on Voyager, maybe with more of the crew hating him, which would have been more entertaining. He could have been more of a bad guy trying to be a good guy. Also having Janeway mistrust him much more would have been interesting.
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Old July 3 2013, 03:55 AM   #38
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Exactly. Locarno only confessed because Wesley made him do it. If Wes hadn't spoken up, Locarno would have continued to cover it up.

Paris came clean for what he did all on his own. That alone makes the difference.
Paris then became a Marquis terrorist. The whole point of Paris is he's a bad guy who becomes a hero.

Where is the idea redemption doesn't exist coming from?
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Old July 3 2013, 05:18 AM   #39
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

Were the Maquis really terrorists? They always came off as a paramilitary organization. Their goal was to fight the Cardassians as a military. They weren't killing civilians, were they? I certainly don't recall any obvious terrorism type attacks, something that Kira and Shakaar really did commit. With all the ex-Starfleet people in the Maquis, it's hard to believe they'd attack civilian targets.
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Old July 3 2013, 05:37 AM   #40
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Were the Maquis really terrorists? They always came off as a paramilitary organization. Their goal was to fight the Cardassians as a military. They weren't killing civilians, were they? I certainly don't recall any obvious terrorism type attacks, something that Kira and Shakaar really did commit. With all the ex-Starfleet people in the Maquis, it's hard to believe they'd attack civilian targets.
The Maquis on VOY were the nicest terrorists ever.

The Maquis from TNG and DS9 actually felt dangerous.
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Old July 3 2013, 05:51 AM   #41
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Were the Maquis really terrorists? They always came off as a paramilitary organization. Their goal was to fight the Cardassians as a military. They weren't killing civilians, were they? I certainly don't recall any obvious terrorism type attacks, something that Kira and Shakaar really did commit. With all the ex-Starfleet people in the Maquis, it's hard to believe they'd attack civilian targets.
You didn't watch much DS9? They blew up a civilian freighter in their pilot episode that may or may not have been carrying weapons.

In Ro's episode, they stole supplies from a Federation ship, and were going to attack a convoy of freighters which were apparently civilian. Though they also did attack Gul Evek's ship head on that episode.

Eddington did a whole bunch of terrorist crap. Stole industrial replicators, then manufactured biogenic weapons to poison two entire Cardassian worlds. His whole cyber attacks could be considered cyberterrorism, not to mention he gunned down one of those freighters evacuating the worlds he poisoned to cover his escape.

The Maquis were well intentioned and definitely sympathetic, but there's no getting around they were terrorists. Distasteful as it may be, it's really the modus operandi for any small group taking up arms against a larger one, especially as technology gets better and better.
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Old July 3 2013, 06:24 AM   #42
Pavonis
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

I've watched lots of DS9, actually. But it has been a while. And there's probably room to dispute whether some of the Maquis targets were really civilian. If the freighters were carrying weapons sent by the Central Command, are they a legitimate military target, even if civilians are running the ships? I'd not put it past the Cardassians to disguise their own soldiers as civilians to ship weapons to their own colonists. It's something they'd do.

What is terrorism? Is it something that only happens to civilians? If so, blowing up freighters would be, I suppose. But what if the civilians are contracting with the government? Is it a legitimate target then?
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Old July 3 2013, 06:26 AM   #43
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

A terrorist is just a freedom fighter by another name. Whether he counts as a hero or a villain depends entirely on your point of view.
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Old July 3 2013, 07:39 AM   #44
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

maneth wrote: View Post
A terrorist is just a freedom fighter by another name. Whether he counts as a hero or a villain depends entirely on your point of view.
BS.

There's certainly overlap between 'Terrorist' and 'Freedom fighter'. The Maquis and the Bajoran resistance fall into that overlap.

Pretty hard to describe Terra Firma, The Circle or abortion clinic bombers as 'Freedom fighters'. Terrorists who fight not for freedom, but to force people to follow their own will.
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Old July 3 2013, 09:54 AM   #45
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

Was that dude on the Enterprise D's bridge, played by Josh Clark, in TNG's Justice, meant to be Joe Carey from Voyager? It could be the same guy.
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