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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old July 7 2013, 07:29 PM   #16
Kinokima
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Re: Janice Lester / Turnabout Intruder

Big Daddy wrote: View Post
Heck, the whole series is sexist by today's standards.
Yep...of course I try not to make a big issue out of it because I think it is silly to complain about sexism of the 60's when there is still sexism today.

It's not like I see the new Abrams movies for example as a forward example of feminism.

And it's not like the original series did everything wrong. Just the presence of female writers (such as DC Fontana) in my opinion was a positive form of feminism. Now compare this to the New Doctor Who (which I am also a fan of) which pretty much has no female writers.
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Old July 7 2013, 07:39 PM   #17
Sadara
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Re: Janice Lester / Turnabout Intruder

I don't think the episode was sexist and I don't think Kirk's comment at the end of the show was meant in a sexist way. Kirk wasn't the one making Starfleet policy so he wasn't implying from a personal standpoint that women couldn't be effective starship captains.

Janice Lester was batshit insane. Instead of being a Starfleet officer and working toward establishing the acceptance of women in command positions, she was consumed with jealousy and succeeded only in ruining her own life.

I think it's important to understand something about the time TOS was made; women were only allowed to enlist or become officers in certain areas of the military, mostly medical probably. It wasn't until the 1970's that women could enter most areas save for combat training or duty. So at that time it wasn't farfetched for the show to portray women as not having all the opportunities the men had. The show was constrained somewhat by what the culture was like at the time it was made.
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Old July 7 2013, 08:25 PM   #18
Metryq
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Re: Janice Lester / Turnabout Intruder

Kinokima wrote: View Post
I think it is silly to complain about sexism of the 60's when there is still sexism today.
Including the pretense that there aren't general differences between genders. People need to learn to relax.
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Old July 7 2013, 09:02 PM   #19
The Old Mixer
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Re: Janice Lester / Turnabout Intruder

I don't think it was the writers' intent, but another possible ingredient for rationalizing it is that on TOS, the term "starship" seemed reserved specifically for the Constitution-class vessels. It's possible that at the time of TOS, while female captains were allowed in Starfleet, there didn't happen to be any female captains of the dozen or so Constitution-class ships in the fleet, playing in to Lester's other issues....
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Old July 10 2013, 12:57 AM   #20
Kail
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Re: Janice Lester / Turnabout Intruder

I have ALWAYS taken Lester's comment "Your world of Starship Captains doesn't allow women" as Kirk's obsession with becoming a Captain left no room for her, not that female Captains are not allowed.
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Old July 10 2013, 01:19 AM   #21
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Re: Janice Lester / Turnabout Intruder

Kail wrote: View Post
I have ALWAYS taken Lester's comment "Your world of Starship Captains doesn't allow women" as Kirk's obsession with becoming a Captain left no room for her, not that female Captains are not allowed.
That's how I've always seen it.
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Old July 10 2013, 06:50 AM   #22
Push The Button
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Re: Janice Lester / Turnabout Intruder

SiddFinch1 wrote: View Post
As others have said....at the time I think it meant women weren't allowed to be captains. It was made in the 1960s...over years Retconned over the years to say she washed out due to her own issues and that she thinks kirk dumped her for starfleet instead
Until 1967, women serving in the U.S military couldn't hold a rank higher than Lt. Colonel/Commander. You can imagine that, at the time, this real world restriction may have inspired the "Women aren't allowed to be captains" plot point in this episode.
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Old July 10 2013, 07:30 AM   #23
Timo
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Re: Janice Lester / Turnabout Intruder

...And it would also be fine from the in-universe point of view (seeing as Starfleet at that time point is neo-conservative in so many ways), if not for this not really fitting the plot at all.

Janice Lester does not seem to be angry about not being able to become starship captain. She's angry solely at Kirk, for not being able to have Kirk, and subsequently (deeper into her madness) for not being able to be Kirk. She mentions no ambition of becoming a starship captain, and no hatred of Starfleet - it's all about Kirk, Kirk, Kirk.

The captain thing is just something she has to tackle on the side, something she tells she had to spend extra time preparing for. Only Kirk, in the inquest, ever suggests that ambition would have been among Lester's motivations - and he simply guesses wrong.

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Old July 10 2013, 03:56 PM   #24
Dale Sams
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Re: Janice Lester / Turnabout Intruder

I'm still annoyed that, here in the very last episode, the XO is still subject to a very deep-seated disrespect.

Lt. Security dude: "You're as mad as she is.
You're to leave here at once. I follow orders."
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Old July 10 2013, 05:44 PM   #25
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Re: Janice Lester / Turnabout Intruder

^This was an "idiot premise" episode through and through....The plot only worked because people bought into the charade too easily. There should have been a million things that only Kirk would know that weren't on public record, that he could have used to prove who he really was, for example.
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Old July 10 2013, 07:45 PM   #26
Timo
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Re: Janice Lester / Turnabout Intruder

But the point wasn't just that of proving that Kirk was Kirk. It also involved proving that Lester wasn't Kirk - and that should not be easy. Undermining the position of the ship's commanding officer should be full of obstacles instead, and Lester had studied Starfleet regulations with the intent of making things as difficult as possible.

As for talking a guard out of his duty... That really shouldn't happen. "You are to leave here at once" is right. But I fully agree that "You are mad" is not.

But the guards aren't complete idiots. They know not to take sides; they know not to pursue theories. They know that if they do nothing, things will get sorted out eventually. The CO can't e.g. execute anybody without their active cooperation, and despite appearances we never see the guards prepare for an execution. At most they walk people out of the room where a seeming madman has sentenced them to death - an eminently smart move!

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Old July 10 2013, 08:04 PM   #27
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Re: Janice Lester / Turnabout Intruder

I'm not just talking about redshirts, I'm talking about the entire crew from Spock down. A mind meld shouldn't have been necessary in Spock's case. And given the number of impersonators of one type or another that had infiltrated the ship, a situation like this should be investigated, not scoffed at out of hand. TNG was a bit smarter about this...when somebody started acting strangely, the characters actually knew to take "alien influences" into account.
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Old July 10 2013, 08:19 PM   #28
Timo
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Re: Janice Lester / Turnabout Intruder

Remember in "The Enemy Within" how Spock put everything else on hold when the person looking like Kirk told him to concentrate on maintaining appearances and preserving the Captain's reputation? It would be inconsistent for him to do anything else in this case, either...

By Spock's logic, in both of these cases, having the real Kirk in command of the ship is less important than having a Kirk there, as long as the ship is in no obvious danger from the possible impostor.

Why is this? Would the ship indeed be thrown into chaos if it turned out the CO was a rotten apple, one way or another? This is not exactly Horatio Hornblower, where the crew consists of the dregs of the society and is ready to cut throats at the first sign of laxness from their bosses. But this is not exactly TNG, either: Kirk's crew in the early episodes is undisciplined, argumentative and less than fully committed to its duties (say, "The Man Trap"). Protecting the apparent CO from impressions of weakness might indeed be crucial, and a priority job for the XO.

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Old July 10 2013, 10:26 PM   #29
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Re: Janice Lester / Turnabout Intruder

Number One was an Executive Officer, but still not a Captain. Not a single female Starfleet Captain ever appeared on TREK until ''The Voyage Home.'' Shaky writing notwithstanding, I've never doubted Lester's ''no female Captains'' comment to be valid. She resents Kirk to be sure, but she resented being barred from captaincy so much she was willing to alter her sexuality to achieve that. Even if she possessed self-hatred, the Starfleet rule only poisoned and exacerbated it.
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Old July 10 2013, 11:53 PM   #30
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Re: Janice Lester / Turnabout Intruder

^^@Timo: They also put top priority on flushing out the "imposter", they couldn't allow him command of the ship...and all of that was before the android, the mirror universe double, etc.
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