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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old December 8 2013, 05:30 AM   #436
SpHeRe31459
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Doug Otte wrote: View Post
Thanks for the input. I stand corrected about his pride in his work. However, didn't you find it odd and a bit alarming how he claimed to not have any memory of some of his scripts during the writers' roundtable?
In his defense, the guy is responsible (in some fashion) for 100's of hours of the Trek franchise. I'm not really surprised he's lost the details of his earliest work.

He's much more tuned in when he talks about Enterprise, his most recent work for the franchise.

Remember he was a fresh faced 25 year old intern when he started on TNG.
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Old December 8 2013, 06:10 AM   #437
M'rk, son of Mogh
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Doug Otte wrote: View Post
Thanks for the input. I stand corrected about his pride in his work. However, didn't you find it odd and a bit alarming how he claimed to not have any memory of some of his scripts during the writers' roundtable?
How long did they spend on each script as they were pumping them all out? Maybe they pumped them out seemingly so fast that it's tough to get too attached to some of the ones that don't stand out. It's been a long time and he's been working on a lot since then, I didn't really see that much wrong with it. Especially since, unlike us, they don't memorize and watch and re-watch these episodes and make sure they're forever burned into their mind. It's the same thing with actors. Some of them remember their past roles well, others are more along the lines of "Kid, I don't know, I said the lines then was immediately focused on the next one".
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Old December 8 2013, 08:47 PM   #438
Hober Mallow
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Maxwell Everett wrote: View Post
I'm curious, what makes you think that it was specifically that story which led Braga to write "Cause and Effect"?
I doubt Braga ever read the story. For all I know, Braga may have thought he invented the time-loop story. While the cause of the main character's experiencing the same day again and again and the story's resolution are totally different from "Cause and Effect," of course, "Tunnel" is the earliest "Groundhog Day" time-loop (or apparent time-loop) story I'm aware of.
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Old December 8 2013, 08:54 PM   #439
Doug Otte
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

M'rk, son of Mogh wrote: View Post
Doug Otte wrote: View Post
Thanks for the input. I stand corrected about his pride in his work. However, didn't you find it odd and a bit alarming how he claimed to not have any memory of some of his scripts during the writers' roundtable?
How long did they spend on each script as they were pumping them all out? Maybe they pumped them out seemingly so fast that it's tough to get too attached to some of the ones that don't stand out. It's been a long time and he's been working on a lot since then, I didn't really see that much wrong with it. Especially since, unlike us, they don't memorize and watch and re-watch these episodes and make sure they're forever burned into their mind. It's the same thing with actors. Some of them remember their past roles well, others are more along the lines of "Kid, I don't know, I said the lines then was immediately focused on the next one".
Your response (and others') makes sense, especially the highlighted section above. During the writers' roundtable, Moore remembered every detail, but of course he was a huge fan from the beginning. Perhaps Braga's forgetfulness stood out to me in contrast to Moore's memories.
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Old December 8 2013, 09:39 PM   #440
SpHeRe31459
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Doug Otte wrote: View Post
Your response (and others') makes sense, especially the highlighted section above. During the writers' roundtable, Moore remembered every detail, but of course he was a huge fan from the beginning. Perhaps Braga's forgetfulness stood out to me in contrast to Moore's memories.
I agree with that, Braga and Moore are quite the contrast. It's very clear Moore still really cares about Trek and loves it deeply. He's said in most of his commentaries that he went back and looked at his original script notes and re-watched the episode before he came into do the new commentary.

He tears up a little when talking about Gene Roddenberry and his passing in the documentary Trek Nation, and seems pretty emotional when talking about it again in the S5 docs.

Braga on the other hand is browbeaten about his Trek. Since he's responsible for the last half of VOY and of course co-created ENT, and we all know he got tons of flak for ENT.

FYI: For those not watching the ENT Blu-ray sets, in the S2 documentary the ENT writing team talk about how they were literally mailed someone's garbage by an angry fan, with a note that said "this is what you're doing to Star Trek".

Moore never got that, he gets accolades for DS9 (rightly so), and then he saw the writing on the wall and got out of the franchise.

All that being said, the "Cause and Effect" commentary is still quite poor, it doesn't excuse that.
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Old December 9 2013, 01:05 AM   #441
Maxwell Everett
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Maxwell Everett wrote: View Post
I'm curious, what makes you think that it was specifically that story which led Braga to write "Cause and Effect"?
I doubt Braga ever read the story. For all I know, Braga may have thought he invented the time-loop story. While the cause of the main character's experiencing the same day again and again and the story's resolution are totally different from "Cause and Effect," of course, "Tunnel" is the earliest "Groundhog Day" time-loop (or apparent time-loop) story I'm aware of.
There are earlier time loop stories, according to Wikipedia. In 1941, there was an American short story called Doubled and Redoubled where the protagonist repeats a "perfect" day after being cursed by a witch (Groundhog Day's original script used a curse as the cause). That precedes Pohl's story by 13 years.
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Last edited by Maxwell Everett; December 9 2013 at 01:49 AM.
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Old December 9 2013, 03:35 AM   #442
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

SpHeRe31459 wrote: View Post
I agree with that, Braga and Moore are quite the contrast. It's very clear Moore still really cares about Trek and loves it deeply. He's said in most of his commentaries that he went back and looked at his original script notes and re-watched the episode before he came into do the new commentary.
I wouldnt say Braga doesnt love Star Trek. I remember him often saying, how much he misses working on the shows.

It's just that Moore prepares better. If Braga would prepare himself for the commentaries by watching the episode and taking notes, he would appear to be more remembering like Moore does.

Actually I sometimes wonder if Moore really loves all aspects of Star Trek. He always states how much he got into arguments with the producers, when he wanted to tell a story in contrast to Roddenberrys view on the future and how Star Trek should be. It wouldnt surprise me, if a pure Moore Star Trek would be very grim and gritty, full of conflict, war and voilence. Moore definatly didnt share the very optimistic view of Roddenberry regarding the future of mankind and many stories on TNG written by Moore would have looked very differently without the infuence of Berman and Piller on the stories.
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Old December 9 2013, 03:58 AM   #443
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Jones was saying that he was the only composer who used the Trek theme in his scores. One notable example was Locutus' full body reveal, the main notes play.

Though I do recall McCarthy quotes the TOS theme very nicely at the end of the Yesterday's Enterprise teaser. "NCC-1701....C....USS....Enterprise."
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Old December 9 2013, 01:28 PM   #444
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Salinga wrote: View Post
It wouldnt surprise me, if a pure Moore Star Trek would be very grim and gritty, full of conflict, war and voilence.
And you could call that Battlestar Galactica


I've finished the season 5 set. I posted most of this already on Blu-ray.com:

Redemption II: A
Darmok: A
Ensign Ro: A
Silicon Avatar: B
Disaster: A
The Game: B (First half C, second half A)
Unification: B+
A Matter of Time: B+
New Ground: B
Hero Worship: C
Violations: C+
The Masterpiece Society: B
Conundrum: A-
Power Play: A
Ethics: B
The Outcast: B+
Cause & Effect: A-
The First Duty: A-
Cost of Living: B-
The Perfect Mate: C
Imaginary Friend: C
I, Borg: A-
The Next Phase: A
The Inner Light: A-
Time's Arrow: A-

Commentaries:
Cause & Effect: C-
The first duty: A
I, Borg: A-
The Inner Light: B+

Gag Reel: A
Requiem: A Remembrance of Star Trek: The Next Generation: B+/A- (A little short. Too bad there's no 3rd part since season 3 - at least not on the season set)

In Conversation: The Music of Star Trek: The Next Generation: C
I was very disappointed with this one. This is a special feature about the music and you never hear a single note played in this. Dennis McCarthy sings the Intro and that's it. Why is he sitting at a piano? They are talking about music for 75 minutes. "Talking about music is like dancing about architecture." He could have played some of his compositions, he is talking about. They could have cut to the episode they are talking about. Most of them are already remastered so they probably could have played scenes of episodes with music only - without effects and voices. This is a lost opportunity!
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Old December 9 2013, 11:21 PM   #445
Dick_Valentine
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

HGN2001 wrote: View Post
STAR TREK was always far more than "explosions" to me. They were always way down in importance to story and acting.

Harry
Seriously? We're still trotting out that tired old line? Especially in a thread that's dealing with the new additions of the remastering, IE the story is staying the same but the main topic of discussing is the new aspects of the episodes brought to us by the restoration team. Yes, the special effects!

It'd make an interesting thread on it's own TBH, why is the hard work put in by the FX team (make no mistake they work just as hard as the actors, writers, etc) undervalued just because they spend their time designing the ships and making the amazing universe that Star Trek is set in seem as real as possible.

There's no need to guilt other posters just because the topic of discussion is on the SFX, for a change. There's more than enough threads out there talking about every possible story permutation to justify the fact we're not JUST here for the explosions and one aspect of the series isn't more "worthy" than another, thank you very kindly.

jimbotron wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
And don't forget that very explosion was used for the destruction of the Enterprise D's star drive section in Generations. For all the times that explosion has been used throughout Star Trek's history, I'm surprised they haven't used it at least once in the restoration. It's a fairly nice looking explosion in my opinion.
They did. It's used at the end of Evolution (as in the original):

http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x...ion_hd_409.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x...ion_hd_410.jpg

Speaking of explosions, here's another example of reuse:

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g4...dgenerator.jpg
http://geeksoulbrother.com/wp-conten...-explosion.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...tsfshd1286.jpg

The Reliant explosion has been used a few times too, such as in Night Terrors.
It's a shame they never had the budget to provide new explosions every time because by their very nature explosions aren't that uniform, obviously.
Just another aspect of the show we all accept in the filter in our eyes. "That explosion may look the same, but it's actually hugely different somehow"

Same with the warp effect too. After Encounter at Farpoint we never did get another new "Entering Warp" effect (The Runabout one from Timescape was made for DS9 IIRC )

Oh well, there's only so far a TV budget can stretch, I guess.
(Which is why those who say "I want it restored to exactly as it was" end up being a bit shortsighted imo. "Exactly as it was" isn't exactly how the writers expected it to be tbh.
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Old December 9 2013, 11:35 PM   #446
jimbotron
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Dick_Valentine wrote: View Post
Same with the warp effect too. After Encounter at Farpoint we never did get another new "Entering Warp" effect (The Runabout one from Timescape was made for DS9 IIRC )
That's right. IIRC, the closest they came to a new one was the stalled warp in Phantasms.
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Old December 9 2013, 11:50 PM   #447
Dick_Valentine
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

jimbotron wrote: View Post
Dick_Valentine wrote: View Post
Same with the warp effect too. After Encounter at Farpoint we never did get another new "Entering Warp" effect (The Runabout one from Timescape was made for DS9 IIRC )
That's right. IIRC, the closest they came to a new one was the stalled warp in Phantasms.
Yeah. Must've been too prohibitively expensive in those days.

(Conversely as soon as they got into the CG era Voyager and The Enterprise were warping off left right and centre, sometimes entire fleets would be seen going to warp. It was quite a contrast )

*Edit* There's a couple of episodes where the D engages its engines and warps past the camera but I don't count those. No Rubber Band Effect, no dice IMO
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Old December 10 2013, 03:19 AM   #448
TV's Frank
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

jimbotron wrote: View Post
Jones was saying that he was the only composer who used the Trek theme in his scores. One notable example was Locutus' full body reveal, the main notes play.

Though I do recall McCarthy quotes the TOS theme very nicely at the end of the Yesterday's Enterprise teaser. "NCC-1701....C....USS....Enterprise."
Ron Jones was referring to Goldsmith theme from STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE when he said that, not the Alexander Courage theme from TOS. The TOS fanfare by Courage is used extensively by both Jones and McCarthy in the first two seasons, less so as the show continued.
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Old December 10 2013, 04:56 AM   #449
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Yeah, you would only hear the Courage theme at the end of some episodes in the later seasons, most notably "Cause and Effect".
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Old December 12 2013, 08:02 PM   #450
Hober Mallow
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Maxwell Everett wrote: View Post
There are earlier time loop stories, according to Wikipedia. In 1941, there was an American short story called Doubled and Redoubled where the protagonist repeats a "perfect" day after being cursed by a witch (Groundhog Day's original script used a curse as the cause). That precedes Pohl's story by 13 years.
I'll have to check it out. The ending of the Pohl story is classic, though.
Dick_Valentine wrote: View Post
*Edit* There's a couple of episodes where the D engages its engines and warps past the camera but I don't count those. No Rubber Band Effect, no dice IMO
That's right. It would be just the normal stock fly-by, only the engines would brighten and then the fly-by would get quicker. Not much of a warp effect.
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