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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old June 26 2013, 11:32 PM   #16
Sran
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Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

Crazyewok wrote: View Post
Deactivated mines round the wormhole would not effect the Klingons, Romulans,Cardassians. Infact I cant see why they would be against it as its does not affect them.
You're missing the point. It's not the mines themselves that are the issue but how their placement would be perceived by other powers. There's no way to know how the Romulans or Klingons would have felt about the Federation making such a bold move. They were willing to allow mine placement in "A Call to Arms," but the Klingons were committed to assisting the Federation in any war effort by that time, and the Romulans had recently signed a non-agression pact with the Dominion and would not have been affected by Starfleet's decision.

Had similar action been taken following "The Search," it's not entirely clear how either government would have reacted. The Tal Shiar took part in a joint operation with the Obsidian Order, but that venture wasn't sanctioned by either party's government. The Klingons were frightened enough of the Dominion that they were prepared to attack Cardassia by 2372 (before their alliance with the Dominion was conceived). Who's to say they wouldn't have attacked the Federation for assuming such an aggressive stance.

Crazyewok wrote:
I cant see why the Bajorans would be against it as if they are dormant they wont stop wormhole traffic. By the time they are needed and activated then Bajor would be in a situation were its that or be destroyed.
Why would Starfleet place mines near the wormhole and not activate them? That completely defies the point of having the mines in the first place. They're not useful unless they're active. There would be no delay in setting them, so there would be no chance for the Bajorans (or anyone else) to use the wormhole until the mines were removed.

Crazyewok wrote:
They wont hurt the Wormhole either as they are just mines outside.
There's no way to know that. A large explosion could have damaged the entrance, making travel through the wormhole more difficult.

Crazyewok wrote:
The only person that would get pissy are the Dominion and by the time of The Die is cast war was more or less going to happen thanks to Cardassian and Romulan stupidity.
Rubbish. If that's the case, why did it take a full two years following that attack for the Dominion to finally go after the Federation? Why send a series of Changeling infiltrators into the Alpha Quadrant to create unrest and instability if an attack has already been set into motion? Seems like a huge waste of resources, IMO.

Crazyewok wrote:
If I was in charge of Starfleet I would have mined it and given the activation codes to the Bajorans too to keep them happy and I would have pulled ten ships off Exploration dutys and stationed them at DS9 Alongside the Defiant to deter some power trying to sieze the station like in way of the warrior. O and I would have assigned a experianced admiral from the border wars to DS9 too seeing as its such a hugely important post.
Again, the mines would have been activated as soon as they were in position. There would have been no reason to give the codes to the Bajorans, regardless of what they thought about it. Besides, allowing such sensitive information to be given to a non-Federation government would have risked the codes falling into the wrong hands. Would you give your neighbor your credit card number? No one with a shred of common sense would do something so risky.

As to your second point, Sisko was the commander of Deep Space 9 and had proven himself to be more than capable of making difficult decisions when pressed to do so. Why would Starfleet undermine his authority by sending an admiral to supervise the station? Again, that's a waste of resources and defeats the purpose of Sisko being aboard the station.

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Old June 26 2013, 11:56 PM   #17
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Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

Sran wrote: View Post

You're missing the point. It's not the mines themselves that are the issue but how their placement would be perceived by other powers. There's no way to know how the Romulans or Klingons would have felt about the Federation making such a bold move. They were willing to allow mine placement in "A Call to Arms," but the Klingons were committed to assisting the Federation in any war effort by that time, and the Romulans had recently signed a non-agression pact with the Dominion and would not have been affected by Starfleet's decision.
But its not there space or near there space with the exception of the Cardassians. It could not hurt them in anyway, only benifit them in defence.

Sran wrote: View Post
Had similar action been taken following "The Search," it's not entirely clear how either government would have reacted. The Tal Shiar took part in a joint operation with the Obsidian Order, but that venture wasn't sanctioned by either party's government.
The Fact it had not been sanctioned means little to the Dominion. After that incident it was clear they viewed the alpha Quadrent as threat.
Sran wrote: View Post

The Klingons were frightened enough of the Dominion that they were prepared to attack Cardassia by 2372 (before their alliance with the Dominion was conceived). Who's to say they wouldn't have attacked the Federation for assuming such an aggressive stance.
That makes no sense? If the Klingons were scared of the Dominion why would they take offence the Federation takeing pre emptive meassures againt the enemy they are scared of.
Hell they wanted to take the station seeing as the Federation were not doing enough. Federation inactivity could be argued to have caused klingon suspcion!




Sran wrote: View Post

Why would Starfleet place mines near the wormhole and not activate them? That completely defies the point of having the mines in the first place. They're not useful unless they're active.
Well no you keep them deactivated so you can keep travel going until the war breaks out or incase some miracle happens and wars averted.


Sran wrote: View Post
There would be no delay in setting them, so there would be no chance for the Bajorans (or anyone else) to use the wormhole until the mines were removed.
Well as we see in Call to arms when they would be activated would be the point were Travel would be a no issue due to domnion ships blowing anything up there side.

Sran wrote: View Post

There's no way to know that. A large explosion could have damaged the entrance, making travel through the wormhole more difficult.
Well they mined it eventually anyway. And its why you keep them deactvated unless needed as it stops accidents.

Sran wrote: View Post

Rubbish. If that's the case, why did it take a full two years following that attack for the Dominion to finally go after the Federation? Why send a series of Changeling infiltrators into the Alpha Quadrant to create unrest and instability if an attack has already been set into motion? Seems like a huge waste of resources, IMO.
The unrest and instability was planned to weaken the quadrent and create pontential allies to start a foot hold like the Cardies before they started a war.

Sran wrote: View Post

Again, the mines would have been activated as soon as they were in position. There would have been no reason to give the codes to the Bajorans, regardless of what they thought about it. Besides, allowing such sensitive information to be given to a non-Federation government would have risked the codes falling into the wrong hands. Would you give your neighbor your credit card number? No one with a shred of common sense would do something so risky.
It called diplomatic Good will seeing as it was there space and there wormhole. Make them seem like parters or they could get annoyed.
Sran wrote: View Post
As to your second point, Sisko was the commander of Deep Space 9 and had proven himself to be more than capable of making difficult decisions when pressed to do so. Why would Starfleet undermine his authority by sending an admiral to supervise the station? Again, that's a waste of resources and defeats the purpose of Sisko being aboard the station.

--Sran
Because it is one of the most vital stations in the Alpha/Beta Quadrent. No I would no have undermined his authority as I would have removed him from command and given him another asignment or better yet promoted him to admiral. He seemed pretty capable in that role anyway as a staff captain under Ross. Plus a Admiral you could have given him another few ships which would have come in handy a few times.
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Old June 27 2013, 12:21 AM   #18
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Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

For the same reason GB, France, etc had as policy towards Germany appeasement during the '30.
To have 'peace in their times'.
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Old June 27 2013, 12:28 AM   #19
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Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

Crazyewok wrote: View Post
But its not there space or near there space with the exception of the Cardassians. It could not hurt them in anyway, only benifit them in defence.
Not the issue, as it's not about who claims the territory itself. Imagine that your neighbor has decided to stockpile weapons in his basement because he's worried that the person living on the opposite side of his house will attack him. Would that not make you uncomfortable? Even if the weapons might keep the other person at bay for the time being, you'd have no way of knowing how your neighbor would use the weapons if and when the threat subsided. What's to stop him from coming after you? What if the weapons cause an accident that damages his house and puts yours at risk?

That's my point. Neither the Romulans nor the Klingons could have known how the Federation's decision would have impacted them later. They may have kept the Dominion out of the area, but there's no telling how things already happening in the Alpha Quadrant would have been affected by the move. People were dependent on the wormhole for acquiring new resources. Removing that option may have precipitated an economic crisis within another government, driving that government to take drastic action to support itself, even waging war against another civilization.

Crazyewok wrote:
The Fact it had not been sanctioned means little to the Dominion. After that incident it was clear they viewed the alpha Quadrent as threat.
And they waited two more years to do anything about that threat, and only took that action because they believed the Federation's actions were too aggressive to be ignored.

Crazyewok wrote:
That makes no sense? If the Klingons were scared of the Dominion why would they take offence the Federation takeing pre emptive meassures againt the enemy they are scared of.
Read my paragraphs at the beginning of this post. I see no reason to repeat my answers here.

Crazyewok wrote:
Hell they wanted to take the station seeing as the Federation were not doing enough. Federation inactivity could be argued to have caused klingon suspcion!
Incorrect. They wanted the Cardassian Detapa Council members and were willing to use force to get them off Deep Space 9. They didn't care about the station or they'd have returned with a larger fleet later.

Crazyewok wrote:
Well no you keep them deactivated so you can keep travel going until the war breaks out or incase some miracle happens and wars averted.
You're wrong. Watch "A Call to Arms" again. The mines were activated the moment they were placed. There is no sense in having a large number of mines near a critical region of space if they're not being used.

Crazyewok wrote:
And its why you keep them deactvated unless needed as it stops accidents.
There would be no accidents because no traffic would be allowed through the wormhole at all.

Crazyewok wrote:
The unrest and instability was planned to weaken the quadrent and create pontential allies to start a foot hold like the Cardies before they started a war.
Which only proves my point. If they were planning to attack following "The Die is Cast" as you claim, they would not have bothered trying to weaken their opponents through acts of subterfuge first. The Dominion was a vast interstellar empire with thousands of ships and troops at its disposal. If they'd wanted to attack the Alpha Quadrant in 2371, they'd have done so. That they were willing to bide their time and use other tactics indicates that they weren't sure about starting a war until they'd gotten a better sense of the threats in the Alpha Quadrant.

Crazyewok wrote:
It called diplomatic Good will seeing as it was there space and there wormhole. Make them seem like parters or they could get annoyed.
Even allies and partners don't share every one of their secrets. I'll ask again: would you share your credit card number with your neighbor? Revealing vital information such as mine activation codes would have been the worst thing the Federation could have done. It's not about making the Bajorans feel like partners. They already were partners in that they were helping Starfleet run DS9. It's possible Kira would have known the codes as the station's first officer, but she would not have been permitted to take that information back to her government. It would have been too risky.

Crazyewok wrote:
Because it is one of the most vital stations in the Alpha/Beta Quadrent. No I would no have undermined his authority as I would have removed him from command and given him another asignment or better yet promoted him to admiral.
Deep Space 9 remained one of the most important space stations in the Alpha Quadrant during the Dominion War, and Sisko stayed in command. Removing him as captain would not only have undermined his authority but it would have meant the end of his tenure as the station's commanding officer. Yet you're arguing that you would do so to avoid that problem? That makes absolutely no sense.

And had he been promoted to admiral, there would have been no need for a second admiral to preside over the station. Assigning two flag officers to do the same job is a complete waste of valuable personnel, which is absolutely the wrong thing to do in a combat situation.

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Old June 27 2013, 12:40 AM   #20
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Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
For the same reason GB, France, etc had as policy towards Germany appeasement during the '30.
To have 'peace in their times'.
Precisely correct and said much more eloquently than anything I've posted. The most important responsibility a military officer has is to preserve the peace. Even actions intended as defensive measures have the potential to incite a war, so decisions about such actions must be weighed carefully before they're made and implemented.

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Old June 27 2013, 04:43 PM   #21
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Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

Sran wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
For the same reason GB, France, etc had as policy towards Germany appeasement during the '30.
To have 'peace in their times'.
Precisely correct and said much more eloquently than anything I've posted. The most important responsibility a military officer has is to preserve the peace. Even actions intended as defensive measures have the potential to incite a war, so decisions about such actions must be weighed carefully before they're made and implemented.

--Sran
My post was...multi-layered.

The meaning you detailed is not the only one.
You see, "Peace in their times" was also a reference to Neville Chamberlain; and how well that worked out - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time
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Old June 27 2013, 05:14 PM   #22
Sran
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Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
The meaning you detailed is not the only one.
You see, "Peace in their times" was also a reference to Neville Chamberlain; and how well that worked out - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time
I know what you meant. I just didn't feel like revisiting Chamberlain's incompetence, as I don't recall any Federation representatives who were manipulated as easily as he was. Well, unless you count Admiral Nechayev in the Dominion-engineered virtual reality.

--Sran
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Old June 27 2013, 05:26 PM   #23
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Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

Sran wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
The meaning you detailed is not the only one.
You see, "Peace in their times" was also a reference to Neville Chamberlain; and how well that worked out - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time
I know what you meant. I just didn't feel like revisiting Chamberlain's incompetence, as I don't recall any Federation representatives who were manipulated as easily as he was. Well, unless you count Admiral Nechayev in the Dominion-engineered virtual reality.

--Sran
I find Chamberlain's naivete/the actions it inspired and the federation ones, as displayed throughout 24th century trek, to be quite similar.
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Old June 27 2013, 05:30 PM   #24
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Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

Sran wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
The meaning you detailed is not the only one.
You see, "Peace in their times" was also a reference to Neville Chamberlain; and how well that worked out - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time
I know what you meant. I just didn't feel like revisiting Chamberlain's incompetence, as I don't recall any Federation representatives who were manipulated as easily as he was. Well, unless you count Admiral Nechayev in the Dominion-engineered virtual reality.

--Sran
Jaresh-Inyo seemed that naive. Leyton played him like a fiddle to be certain.
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Old June 27 2013, 05:36 PM   #25
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Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

R. Star wrote: View Post
Jaresh-Inyo seemed that naive. Leyton played him like a fiddle to be certain.
That's a good point. I'd add that Jaresh-Inyo also seemed more concerned with winning a popularity contest than he was with actually doing his job. Every time I hear him say, "I'd hate to be remembered as the Federation President who destroyed paradise," I laugh out loud.

--Sran
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Old June 28 2013, 12:28 AM   #26
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Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

Sran wrote: View Post

Rubbish. If that's the case, why did it take a full two years following that attack for the Dominion to finally go after the Federation? Why send a series of Changeling infiltrators into the Alpha Quadrant to create unrest and instability if an attack has already been set into motion? Seems like a huge waste of resources, IMO.

The Dominion's efforts in season 3-5 were to prime the AQ for invasion so they could take it with less effort and more legitimacy. They wanted to start a war between the Federation and the Klingons and make as many alliances as possible.

If they charged the wormhole immediately after The Search the Federation would have collapsed the wormhole, and they would have ended up facing the entire AQ at the same time. They wanted to divide and conquer.
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Old June 28 2013, 01:31 AM   #27
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Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
The Dominion's efforts in season 3-5 were to prime the AQ for invasion so they could take it with less effort and more legitimacy. They wanted to start a war between the Federation and the Klingons and make as many alliances as possible.

If they charged the wormhole immediately after The Search the Federation would have collapsed the wormhole, and they would have ended up facing the entire AQ at the same time. They wanted to divide and conquer.
I understand that. I was refuting another poster's argument that the Dominion was prepared to attack the Alpha Quadrant immediately after "The Die is Cast" was over.

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Old June 28 2013, 02:18 AM   #28
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Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

cannicks wrote: View Post
Who gives a damn about free movement?

Look, freedom is not even absolute as it stands.

Had the Federation sealed the wormhole after The Search, then no Dominion War.

And screw the Bajorans also. Why then does it matter if they whine about lack of access to the Prophets? So their religion must threaten the entire Alpha Quadrant?
Starfleet couldn't just ignore the Bajorans.

Deep Space Nine was a Bajoran Station, in Bajoran space. If Starfleet decided to arbitrarily plant a minefield, the Bajoran Provisional Government could have expelled them. That would mean that Federation starships would have had to enter the space of a sovereign foreign government to place the mines. Knowing the Bajorans, that would mean facing a blockade of their ships, and if necessarily blasting them out of the way.

What would happen if France thought they were going to be attacked by Russia, so to prevent it they just drove into Germany and planted landmines? Would the French be able to just say "screw the Germans"?
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Old June 28 2013, 02:39 AM   #29
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Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

solariabsg25 wrote: View Post
What would happen if France thought they were going to be attacked by Russia, so to prevent it they just drove into Germany and planted landmines? Would the French be able to just say "screw the Germans"?
Well said. And who's to say that France placing mines in Germany wouldn't provoke a strike by the Russians before the field was finished? Even defensive measures can provoke an attack. It's foolhardy to risk an all-out war by taking an action that may not even be necessary.

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Old June 28 2013, 08:11 AM   #30
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Re: Why didn't the Federation simply mine the wormhole after the Searc

Even after "The Search" I'd argue that the Dominion wasn't a threat that warranted such drastic action as collapsing the wormhole (was it possible at the time, wasn't the method used in season 5 based on the research by the Trill trying to create an artificial wormhole in "Rejoined"?) or mining it. All the Dominion had done was spank lone starships (though one had support from runabouts) and make some general threats of which they don't really back up.

Nor can the Federation really know the power of the Dominion. As I stated, they can destroy lone ships, even one of the capability of the Galaxy class and they know they have conquered some planets and bully others into joining, but is that really all that different from what the Klingons, Romulans or Cardassians have been able to do at various times? While as the viewer it is clear to us they are the next big bad, for the Federation it would be no where near as clear cut.
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