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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 25 2013, 08:25 PM   #76
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Belz... wrote: View Post
And they always did, even when they were EXPLICITLY a nonmilitary organization.
I'll let you try to reconcile that, Eddie. They fight all of the Federation's battles in space but they are not military. Sure.
Sure. What's so strange about that?

It's a possibility, yes. However, I remind you no one was at that meeting but Starfleet officers. And the Romulan ambassador, for some reason. So what does that "we" stand for, then ?
I really do wonder...

Sorry but that's silly. So in order for Starfleet to participate in every engagement in Trek history, no single civilian must ever pick up a weapon ?
"The civilians picked up weapons and did the fighting" would be "an engagement in which Starfleet wasn't involved." So yes.

It's obviously counter factual that ONLY Starfleet can fight on the Federation's behalf. The Federation, unlike the United States, has no concept of "lawful combatant" and basically maintains ANYONE can fight in defense of their own territory, and they often do.
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Old June 25 2013, 08:25 PM   #77
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
I see no major difference between ENT's Starfleet and that of other shows.
Neither do I.

Which is why I wasn't surprised in "Home" when Captain Hernandez tells Archer "I'm not sure how I would feel about a military officer on the bridge."
They are completely different organizations. The one in ENT is the Earth Starfleet; in TOS and further on, it's the Federation Starfleet. They are not the same organization. They have completely different jurisdictions, responsibilities, and organizing charters.

The Earth Starfleet is indeed not a military grouping. The Federation Starfleet is. (The UFP Starfleet is military, it's just not militarISTIC. That's the difference.)
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Old June 25 2013, 08:31 PM   #78
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Plus, in Siege of AR-558, when the relief crew does show up, aren't they Starfleet, not any here-to-fore unseen organization or MACOs?
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Old June 25 2013, 08:33 PM   #79
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

^ I don't remember what the relief crew looked like in that episode. I don't think we saw them. I do recall that some of those AR-558 people wore a unique brand of uniform, but those were the ones that were already there.
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Old June 25 2013, 08:40 PM   #80
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ I don't remember what the relief crew looked like in that episode. I don't think we saw them. I do recall that some of those AR-558 people wore a unique brand of uniform, but those were the ones that were already there.
If I remember correctly, they did all wear the Starfleet arrowhead communicator.
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Old June 25 2013, 08:55 PM   #81
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
They are completely different organizations. The one in ENT is the Earth Starfleet; in TOS and further on, it's the Federation Starfleet. They are not the same organization. They have completely different jurisdictions, responsibilities, and organizing charters.

The Earth Starfleet is indeed not a military grouping. The Federation Starfleet is. (The UFP Starfleet is military, it's just not militarISTIC. That's the difference.)
Starfleet is Starfleet. Not to say it didn't evolve and change over time, but this business about the SF from ENT being a different one from the one in the rest of Trek is bunk, merely a spurious fandom conceit that began as some eager beaver's way of "reconciling" the "error" of SF being around as early as the 2150s back when the "Broken Bow" script first leaked. It was neither intended by writers to be, nor portrayed as being, a different organization.
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Old June 25 2013, 08:56 PM   #82
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

I double checked, after the fighting is over, you see some folks working on the array, but they would seem to be from The Defiant. Worf tells Sisko that the USS Veracruz is sending troops and engineers. I suppose it's possible that the troops are some other form of Federation soldier being transported by a Starfleet vessel, but given that the initial troops that were assigned to hold the array were Starfleet, I'd wager the new guys are as well.
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Old June 25 2013, 09:02 PM   #83
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Earth Starfleet and Federation Starfleet are not one and the same. Certainly they served a similar purpose and have a similar name, but that's like saying that the Iraqi Army that served Saddam Hussein is the same as the Iraqi Army that now exists.
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Old June 25 2013, 09:26 PM   #84
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
I'll let you try to reconcile that, Eddie. They fight all of the Federation's battles in space but they are not military. Sure.
Sure. What's so strange about that?
It's not strange. It's nonsensical. Every military operation ever seen in the Trek universe that involved the Federation was exclusively performed by Starfleet. This alone is evidence against your theory that there's another navy out there (and if it's no navy, you have no argument from me), and makes Starfleet the military (navy) forces of the Federation.

"The civilians picked up weapons and did the fighting" would be "an engagement in which Starfleet wasn't involved." So yes.

It's obviously counter factual that ONLY Starfleet can fight on the Federation's behalf.
The civilians didn't fight on the Federation's behalf but in self-defense. You just defeated your own argument.
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Old June 25 2013, 09:29 PM   #85
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

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The civilians didn't fight on the Federation's behalf but in self-defense. You just defeated your own argument.
And who showed up when Delta Rana sent a distress call? Starfleet!
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Old June 25 2013, 09:44 PM   #86
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
I see no major difference between ENT's Starfleet and that of other shows.
Neither do I.

Which is why I wasn't surprised in "Home" when Captain Hernandez tells Archer "I'm not sure how I would feel about a military officer on the bridge."
They are completely different organizations. The one in ENT is the Earth Starfleet; in TOS and further on, it's the Federation Starfleet. They are not the same organization. They have completely different jurisdictions, responsibilities, and organizing charters.
I don't know about their organizing charters, but their responsibilities and jurisdictions are not all that different.

As to the broader point, the extent to which Earth Starfleet and the Federation Starfleet are separate organizations is very much up for debate. Suffice to say, the Federation Starfleet has much more in common with Earth Starfleet than it does with any real-world naval force.

The Earth Starfleet is indeed not a military grouping. The Federation Starfleet is.
The thing is, Earth Starfleet does absolutely everything that its 23rd century counterpart does. The only reason to believe the Federation fleet is a military force is the examination of its mission roles by comparison with 21st century organizations; however, by the 22nd century that comparison has been rendered invalid anyway, as non-military organizations are shown to be capable of fulfilling those roles. After that, what reason is there to assume Starfleet IS a military when it never needed to be one in the first place?
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Old June 25 2013, 10:36 PM   #87
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Belz... wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
I'll let you try to reconcile that, Eddie. They fight all of the Federation's battles in space but they are not military. Sure.
Sure. What's so strange about that?
It's not strange. It's nonsensical. Every military operation ever seen in the Trek universe that involved the Federation was exclusively performed by Starfleet.
Didn't we just cover that? We know of at least one that wasn't.

More to the point, we already know that nonmilitary organizations can and do perform military missions as of the 22nd century. You have no basis to claim this would have changed by the 23rd (strictly speaking, this is ALREADY the case in the 21st, to the point that traditional notions of what constitutes a military threat has been in considerable flux since 9/11).

This alone is evidence against your theory that there's another navy out there
It's not a theory. The "Federation Naval Patrol" is canon. And Starfleet, which does not operate in the oceans, isn't a navy.

So between the MACO and the FNP, that's at two military organizations that exist apart from Starfleet. And again, since the overwhelming majority of wars in and around Federation space involve heavy ground combat, there's virtually zero reason for any of those organizations to have their own starships.

OTOH, they may have their own fighter squadrons, which would explain why we never saw them before "Sacrifice of Angels" and never again afterwards.

The civilians didn't fight on the Federation's behalf but in self-defense.
Fighting on behalf of Federation citizens is NOT fighting no behalf of the Federation?
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Old June 25 2013, 10:46 PM   #88
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

The Mighty Monkey of Mim wrote: View Post
this business about the SF from ENT being a different one from the one in the rest of Trek is bunk
It's not bunk. It's simply the way it is.
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Old June 25 2013, 10:47 PM   #89
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
The Mighty Monkey of Mim wrote: View Post
this business about the SF from ENT being a different one from the one in the rest of Trek is bunk
It's not bunk. It's simply the way it is.
[citation needed]
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Old June 25 2013, 10:55 PM   #90
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

I'd like some evidence as well. It's my understanding that it's a continuation of the same organisation, but since I've seen ENT only once so far, I'm willing to be proven wrong.
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