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Old August 10 2013, 07:54 PM   #136
T'Girl
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

^^^ Or, the uniforms we see Starfleet personnel wearing are not strickly speaking "Starfleet uniforms." But rather the uniforms of the Federation's military.

So not only does Starfleet wear them, but also the Federation Army/Marines, as well as the maritine partrol that Tom Paris once mentioned.

Single uniform.

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Old August 10 2013, 11:58 PM   #137
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

Hmm - I like the single uniform idea although the ground troops were citing Starfleet regulations to get them off the planet as if they were part of Starfleet. Unless they were Federation Starfleet Army/Marines?
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Old August 11 2013, 12:51 AM   #138
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Starfleet officers are trained to do many things, but they are NOT combat specialists, and they are DEFINITELY NOT ground combat specialists.
Actually, you would think that officers like Tasha Yar and Worf were exactly that, combat specialists, which would include ground operations.
They were the ones with combat TRAINING, but that doesn't necessarily makes them specialists.

It actually mirrors the situation in STXI where Pike looks around the bridge and says "I need crewmen with advanced combat training" and only Sulu raises his hand: not because he completed the Academy's Special Weapons and Tactics course, but because he knows Kendo and he owns a sword. We don't really know whether Sulu got that training as part of Starfleet or studied it on his own (thy kind of imply the latter) but it's a qualification he uniquely brings to the ship on his own.

As far as TOS goes, this sort of goes back to the thing we were discussing about UESPA being a "combined service" that draws personnel from both military and civilian services into a combined exploration fleet.

Certainly a ship's security chief would be trained in directing the ship's security personnel (and others in the ship's company) in ground combat.
That sort of depends, and there are two possibilities for this.

Firs possibility: Depends on if they are command division or operations division. Command division seems to be a generalist track for leadership types who are specialized at problem solving and coordinating groups of people for complicated tasks. Operations division are people who perform specific tasks they are trained to do. Security chief's specialties would therefore by more intrusion detection, conflict resolution, search and rescue, etc.

The other possibility goes as far as the TOS continuity: what branch of service were they originally hired from? A security officer hired from the Rigel VII Police Department might have ideal qualifications for his job that don't neccesarily involve ground combat training. He'd have marksmanship skills and hand-to-hand fighting skills, to be sure, but his main skill set might actually involve his ability to diffuse conflicts and the capacity to remain calm and focused in potentially life threatening situations. OTOH, one could make the case that Tasha Yar was hired as security chief because of her experience as a child soldier in the Turkana-IV civil wars; a couple of years of remedial education would give her the equivalent of a high school diploma, but she's spent her whole life cultivating close quarters combat skills and doesn't know how to do much of anything else. Needless to say, the skill set that is ideal for a security officer in peace time is not necessarily ideal for a rifleman in wartime, and vice versa.
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Old August 11 2013, 09:34 PM   #139
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
one could make the case that Tasha Yar was hired as security chief because of her experience as a child soldier in the Turkana-IV civil wars
There's no indication that Yar was a "child soldier" at any point in her life. Her childhood story involved being a orphan street kid, caring for her younger sister, scavaging for food, and avoiding the local gangs.

Picard recuited her from another Starfleet vessel after watch her exhibit of bravery during a rescue mission.

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Old August 11 2013, 10:11 PM   #140
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
one could make the case that Tasha Yar was hired as security chief because of her experience as a child soldier in the Turkana-IV civil wars
There's no indication that Yar was a "child soldier" at any point in her life. Her childhood story involved being a orphan street kid, caring for her younger sister, scavaging for food, and avoiding the local gangs.
The only thing we know for sure about her is that she left Turkana-IV on a Starfleet vessel while her sister remained behind to join the Cadres and considered her a traitor for not doing the same. This sort of implies that Tasha and Yashara were both active in the Cadres (or the armed militias that later BECAME the Cadres) before Starfleet gave Tasha a ride offworld.
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Old August 18 2013, 09:18 PM   #141
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The only thing we know for sure about her is ...
We know of Tasha's childhood from the various stories she told, and from a "flash back" she had to a time in her youth. At no point was there any indication that Tasha was ever at any time in her life a "child soldier."

There's nothing to base this supposition upon.

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Old August 19 2013, 01:08 AM   #142
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The only thing we know for sure about her is ...
We know of Tasha's childhood from the various stories she told, and from a "flash back" she had to a time in her youth.
And also the stories her sister told and the retrospective considerations of Picard about Tasha's situation
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Old September 14 2013, 01:58 AM   #143
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Very true. Except that Starfleet's operations, ships, mission roles and even its rank structure (the suspicious absence of enlisted crewmen on the Enterprise-D) are a better fit for an armed version of NOAA.
Sorry to jump in like this, but I just started reviewing this thread and thought I should comment.

In TNG's "Family", there is a brief exchange in the Transporter Room between Chief O'Brien and Sergey Rozhenko (Worf's step-father), indicating they are both Chief Petty Officers, definitely a non-commissioned rank.

Later, in "The Drumhead", Admiral Satie's inquisition focuses on Simon Tarses, described clearly as a Crewman, Second Class, which is again an obvious enlisted/NCO rank. In fact, in Tarses' eventual private conversation with Captain Picard, Tarses made it clear that he chose to enlist over Starfleet Academy so that he could get into space immediately rather than wait.
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Old September 14 2013, 05:14 AM   #144
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

While all these debates over semantics, concepts and continuity in the STAR TREK universe are fascinating to skim/read over, I think we're missing a few valuable points here:

1: The whole basic notion on which STAR TREK is obviously founded is that it is at least 150-400 years into future, so some basic concepts and terminology may have significantly changed. The United Earth Starfleet of ENT and the Federation Starfleet of TOS/TNG/etc. may serve, in some vaguely recognizable fashion as the official "military" of their time. But does that make those organizations militaristic on the 20th or 21st century sense? As with many things in TREK, the answer is left open. The story and the characters are emphasized; the fictional Galaxy they inhabit is not so clear. (Hell, even the story and characters are often vague in many ways.)

2: We never see any organization explicitly spelled out as "marines" or "ground troops" in a purely recognizable "Old Earth" fashion. But we do see uniformed Federation personnel taking orders from Captain Sisko during "The Siege of AR-558", as if they were functionally serving, in some vague fashion, as "ground troops". Countering this obvious development, though, is the very format of the TREK Universe. It is made clear, time and again, what the size and scope of starships, star fleets, and their hostile encounters would be. "Yesterday's Enterprise" from TNG's Season 3 made it clear that tens of billions had died in the Federation-Klingon conflict. This strongly implies that whole populations had been nuked or otherwise similarly wiped out. While no orbital bombardments were explicitly spelled out (they were in the unrelated TNG 2nd Season outing "Contagion"), it is very strongly implied that combat in that TREK Universe revolves around a battleship-and-bombing model, not one of planetary-scale invasions and occupations. To put it simply, the moving of armies of live troops (or robotic troops) sufficient to invade/occupy a planet would require space vessels of massive bulk. The only species that comes to mind for having ships built for that purpose would be the Borg. (The unseen Jem'Hadar invasion of Betazed during the Dominion War never made sense; even using the largest Dominion battleships would require huge fleets to overwhlem a whole planet.) So the whole starship-capacity-model in the TREK Universe rules out the practical notion of millions of troops invading worlds.

This doesn't rule out a very different model, however...

(3: The whole notion discussed thus far seems to rotate around "marines" and "armies" of combat "soldiers". Perhaps, for sake of argument, we should step back from such a direct, purely up-front militaristic approach.

We know that Federation and Starfleet conduct and structures favor peaceful diplomacy, non-interference, defense-over-offense-where-possible, exploration, science, cooperation, and constructive exchange. While the military aspects of Starfleet are undeniable, it need not be a purely military organization. Perhaps it is best described as a hybrid organization.

Consider that, in both TOS outings "Friday's Child" and "A Private Little War", in is made clear that uniformed Federation Starfleet personnel are, from time to time, assigned to planetary exploration. (Lt. James T. Kirk apparently lived with Tyree on Neural; Dr. McCoy also lived among the Ten Tribes on Capella IV. Both of these cases clearly spelled out that Starfleet personnel were assigned there.) Also, in TOS' "Court Martial", Jamie Finney urged Capt. Kirk to take a "ground assignment".

In "Balance of Terror", the Enterprise races to the aide of Earth Outpost 4 along the Romulan Neutral Zone, only to arrive too late. The outpost's sole representative that we see is Commander Hansen, who is apparently a human. What is not clear is what organization Hansen represents. Is he Federation Starfleet? Is Outpost 4 a kind of Federation Starbase? Or is it something else? Is it an Earth installation, leftover from the pre-Federation days of the Earth-Romulan Conflict? We don't know. It's all conspicuously vague, left up to the viewer's imagination.

The same goes for Space Station K-7 in "The Trouble with Tribbles" and also the Minara Research Station seen in "The Empath". Are these Starfleet naval facilities, or something else? It's never made clear. While it is apparent there may be civilian presence on any such facilities, it seems possible they could be operated/sponsored by the Federation in general or Starfleet in particular. (After all, the Enterprise responded to check on both Outpost 4 and the research station.)

But if these facilities are Starfleet operations, wouldn't they be naval in their organization? Perhaps not. Starfleet appears to operate space stations, planet-based starbases, and dockyards. Why wouldn't it have a subsidiary devoted to "ground assignments" as well?

Back in 2010, I started a thread about a similar subject "Conjecture: StarFIREs", to refer to a "ground assignment" subsidiary of Starfleet. Note that Starfleet would be the parent organization. The notion of StarFIREs (or TACTS) would not be its own organization. Think of this "ground assignment" operation as being part-Navy SeaBees, part-Peace Corps, part-expeditionary force and part-explorers.
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