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Old October 10 2013, 01:43 AM   #61
T'Girl
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
Living Witness features no Stardates, so the creation and loss of The Doctor's back-up module could have occurred at any point between Scorpion P2/The Gift (when Seven joined the crew) and the end of the series, so the 'problem' of Message in a Bottle, Blink of an Eye, and Life Line apparently contradicting this episode isn't really that much of a problem.
And if the EMH back-up module being lost happen in the timeline where Voyager had to travel all the way to Earth without the benefit of the Borg conduit, there would heve been plenty of time to devise a back-up module and subsequently lose it.

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Old October 10 2013, 02:08 AM   #62
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

The timeline diverged only when the crew used Admiral Janeway's help to get home, so the development and theft/loss of The Doctor's back-up module would've still happened within the 'timeline' of the series because the crew's actions in getting home didn't affect things they'd already done BEFORE making it home, and since the three episodes I mentioned reference The Doctor not having a back-up module, its creation and theft/loss would had to have happened after MiaB and before Blink of an Eye, which would put in in the past with regards to the crew getting home.
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Old October 10 2013, 03:39 AM   #63
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

All the millions of greatest minds in the Federation devoting the totality of their drive to mess up the boundaries of science said "You can't copy an EMH, and you can't back up an EMH."

That's weak?

That's really weak.

How about this.

Zimmerman created the EMH as uncopiable, unmassproducable so that he could control the purity and dissemination of his program. Otherwise every asshole who thinks they found a back door into the EMH, can turn him into a disposable amoral infinite workforce.

Worse yet, if Zimmerman feared his AI Pinocchioing (Which he clearly didn't.), he would make procreation difficult to avoid any bloody race wars of independence, just like those aliens did in Prototype, and those other Aliens in body and soul didn't.
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Old October 15 2013, 12:28 AM   #64
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Let's do the math. The galaxy has an estimated 400 billion stars. Leave out the 90% in the probably-uninhabitable central bulge and you've got 40 billion disk stars. Let's say maybe 50% are the right spectral type to support a habitable planet, leaving 20 billion -- and current exoplanet studies suggest that nearly all star systems have planets. There's no guarantee a planet in the habitable zone would be the right type, though, so let's conservatively say there are 2 billion habitable planets in the galaxy. At a guess, let's say that one in 20 of those have space-age civilizations, since those seem pretty common in Trek. That reduces it to 100 million civilizations eligible for contact.
1 in 20 habitable planets sporting a space age civilization seems high. In earth's 4 billion years, how much % did it have a space aged civilization?

0.000001375%?

And that's just rockets. 0% for what the Federation would even bother contacting.


Anwar wrote: View Post
Data said that, despite the Federation being around for 300 years or so, that they'd only explored and mapped out like 8% of the Galaxy.

So by 700 or so years later, yeah it's not hard to believe they still aren't where the Kyrians and Vaskans are.

Remember that Voyager got home so fast because they kept making those massive LY jumps.
Usually such things are not linear but exponential. Faster ships. Better sensors. Etc. If it's 8% in 300 years, one can perhaps deduce a double the area added to the original in 300 more. So:

300 16 = 24% of galaxy
600 32 = 66%
900 64 = 130%

Especially with Voyager's logs being able to point to where these people are... It's more likely that the Federation either collapsed, raised it's bar for first contact (not just warp, but transwarp, etc), or lost interest in contacting Milky Way humanoids (they seem all the same after a while, no?) and are going to new galaxies for knowledge rather than species that can teach them little new.
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Old October 15 2013, 12:38 AM   #65
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Zimmerman created the EMH as uncopiable, unmassproducable so that he could control the purity and dissemination of his program. Otherwise every asshole who thinks they found a back door into the EMH, can turn him into a disposable amoral infinite workforce.
The equinox episodes would seem to have directly counteract this when the doctor was sadistic. Plus the doc and belanna were regularly messing and adding subroutines on a variety of occasions.

The whole thing runs into the same transporter original destroyed/copy made problem which culminated with the William/Tom Riker episode in which the writers brushed up with but didn't directly address the uncomfortable truth that we as individuals aren't that unique or special and can be copied.

Or in case of the doctor, there can be as many copies as someone is willing to put in the energy and resources running the guy.

That the writers allow a "backup" but not copies was a bit of because the two concepts are the same thing. It's like saying "I want to go on a diet so I can't eat french fries, but I'll eat the fried potatoe sticks at McD instead."
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Old October 15 2013, 01:24 AM   #66
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

jibrilmudo wrote: View Post
1 in 20 habitable planets sporting a space age civilization seems high. In earth's 4 billion years, how much % did it have a space aged civilization?
As I said, I'm going by the evident abundance of spacegoing civilizations in Trek, not by what's logical in the real world.

Besides, the number of spacegoing civilizations in the galaxy would presumably increase over time, as more planets form with the conditions to support intelligent life, more intelligent species evolve and develop technology, more planets are colonized by spacegoing races, more planets get spacegoing technology sold or traded to them by species that don't have a Prime Directive, etc. So I'm speaking of the current abundance, not the average abundance over the entire history of the galaxy.
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Old October 15 2013, 01:34 AM   #67
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

Is it possible that the Preservers seeded the galaxy to produce new clusters of civilizations staggeredly every couple million years, so that despite life dying out, there's always more life that'll spring forward eventually?
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Old October 15 2013, 01:42 AM   #68
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

Christopher wrote: View Post
As I said, I'm going by the evident abundance of spacegoing civilizations in Trek, not by what's logical in the real world.
Well, yeah, all I'm saying is that Trek doesn't need 100M contactable races in the galaxy to support its canon.

If we go by the Borg numbering scheme (and assume it's sequential), the highest number I recall is 10026.

Let's assume they mapped out their home quadrant pretty well (they knew the Kazon, just didn't consider them worth assimilating - those coral reef head keep breaking the glass in the regeneration chambers or some such), ignore the outer dimension creatures like 8742, and remember that they started on the alpha quadrant.

Assuming that the whole galaxy is similiarly weighted in species, just multiplying by 3-4 quadrants seems to bring that number in the 30-40k spacefaring species range.

Besides, the number of spacegoing civilizations in the galaxy would presumably increase over time, as more planets form with the conditions to support intelligent life, more intelligent species evolve and develop technology, more planets are colonized by spacegoing races, more planets get spacegoing technology sold or traded to them by species that don't have a Prime Directive, etc. So I'm speaking of the current abundance, not the average abundance over the entire history of the galaxy.
With universes able to live and die, and galaxies as well, I would see it as a Bellcurve, probably dependent on dilithium availabilty or something.
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Old October 15 2013, 02:19 AM   #69
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Voyager had so much useless data in their computers. Background information about Janeways ancestors and Captain Proton parts 25 - 99 would have simply been deleted to make a backup. And you only need to back up the medical part, not any of the additions like singing or whatever.

I really dislike the way they wrote the doctor. It's silly from a computer science pov. The hologram/program confusion, the idea that he sees, feels, smells etc. like a human, the idea that they can't make a backup, etc... It shows the writers really had no understanding of the subject matter.
They did, however, understand that without all that extra, the Doctor would have been a godawful boring character.

jibrilmudo wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Let's do the math. The galaxy has an estimated 400 billion stars. Leave out the 90% in the probably-uninhabitable central bulge and you've got 40 billion disk stars. Let's say maybe 50% are the right spectral type to support a habitable planet, leaving 20 billion -- and current exoplanet studies suggest that nearly all star systems have planets. There's no guarantee a planet in the habitable zone would be the right type, though, so let's conservatively say there are 2 billion habitable planets in the galaxy. At a guess, let's say that one in 20 of those have space-age civilizations, since those seem pretty common in Trek. That reduces it to 100 million civilizations eligible for contact.
1 in 20 habitable planets sporting a space age civilization seems high. In earth's 4 billion years, how much % did it have a space aged civilization?

0.000001375%?

And that's just rockets. 0% for what the Federation would even bother contacting.
Interesting tool, the Drake Equation... Depending on what numbers you arbitrarily start with and which assumptions you make, the end result can be as varied as 1 or billions.


jibrilmudo wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
As I said, I'm going by the evident abundance of spacegoing civilizations in Trek, not by what's logical in the real world.
Well, yeah, all I'm saying is that Trek doesn't need 100M contactable races in the galaxy to support its canon.

If we go by the Borg numbering scheme (and assume it's sequential), the highest number I recall is 10026.

Let's assume they mapped out their home quadrant pretty well (they knew the Kazon, just didn't consider them worth assimilating - those coral reef head keep breaking the glass in the regeneration chambers or some such), ignore the outer dimension creatures like 8742, and remember that they started on the alpha quadrant.

Assuming that the whole galaxy is similiarly weighted in species, just multiplying by 3-4 quadrants seems to bring that number in the 30-40k spacefaring species range.
Didn't the Borg give a number to every new dominant planetary species they encountered, whether they were spacefaring or not?
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Old October 15 2013, 10:53 AM   #70
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
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WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
Its hard for me to imagine, given the way technolagy works in Star trek, that by the 32 century, the federation hasnt colonized most of the galaxy, if not most of this galactic cluster.
Maybe there is no Federation in the 32nd century?
Unlikely...wasn't Daniels from that time?
Daniels was from the 30th century and managed to destroy it at least once, in "Shockwave"
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Old October 15 2013, 06:26 PM   #71
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

^31st century, actually.
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Old October 17 2013, 12:01 PM   #72
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

To the Drake equation, Star Trek itself gave some variables.

According to T'Pol and Archer, 1 of 43,000 planets is populated. I just don't remember now if this was advanced civilization, or life in general.

Also I suspect that this number corresponds only to regular "carbon based" civilizations. After all the Vulcans and Humans would not suspect other beings (energy based, silicon based, Cosmozoans, ...)...
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Old October 17 2013, 12:25 PM   #73
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

Hando wrote: View Post
To the Drake equation, Star Trek itself gave some variables.

According to T'Pol and Archer, 1 of 43,000 planets is populated. I just don't remember now if this was advanced civilization, or life in general.

Also I suspect that this number corresponds only to regular "carbon based" civilizations. After all the Vulcans and Humans would not suspect other beings (energy based, silicon based, Cosmozoans, ...)...
As I recall from the sequence of Cosmos where Carl Sagan explains the Drake Equation, the dealbreaker is the development of radio telescopes and avoiding nuclear annihilation. If a civilization makes it past those two points, it gets counted.
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Old December 8 2013, 07:04 AM   #74
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

Sorry for bumping the thread, but I'm currently watching the episode and have a very different explanation for the apparent inconsistency re: The Doctor's backup module: the episode is set in an alternate version of the Mirror Universe, and The Doctor is pulled into it ala Kirk, McCoy, Scotty, and Uhura.
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Old December 8 2013, 07:52 AM   #75
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

This thread is for original thoughts only.
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