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Old June 24 2013, 10:57 PM   #31
JarodRussell
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

Christopher wrote: View Post
But a sentient consciousness is not a program, it's an emergent process.
On what basis do you make that assumption?

Perhaps sentient consciousness is really nothing more and CAN be transferred, archived and duplicated with ease. We don't know (yet).
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Old June 25 2013, 01:03 AM   #32
WesleysDisciple
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

one other problem?

where was this backup module for a near millenia?

Why wasnt he foun way before now?
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Old June 25 2013, 01:10 AM   #33
Christopher
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
one other problem?

where was this backup module for a near millenia?

Why wasnt he foun way before now?
As Quarren said in the episode, "Three weeks ago our research team found a data storage device buried nine meters beneath the ruins at Kesef. I've confirmed that it came from Voyager." Those ruins could've been abandoned for centuries, overgrown and buried in soil, and only later rediscovered and excavated. It happens all the time. Heck, I read a news item just today about a Maya city that's just been visited by archaeologists after being abandoned for 1200 years.
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Old June 25 2013, 01:39 AM   #34
Gov Kodos
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

Christopher wrote: View Post
WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
one other problem?

where was this backup module for a near millenia?

Why wasnt he foun way before now?
As Quarren said in the episode, "Three weeks ago our research team found a data storage device buried nine meters beneath the ruins at Kesef. I've confirmed that it came from Voyager." Those ruins could've been abandoned for centuries, overgrown and buried in soil, and only later rediscovered and excavated. It happens all the time. Heck, I read a news item just today about a Maya city that's just been visited by archaeologists after being abandoned for 1200 years.
Heck, things don't have to be lost in an inaccessible jungle, an urban car park can hide Richard III. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-21063882
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Old June 25 2013, 02:16 AM   #35
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

Christopher wrote: View Post

I don't think that follows at all. If anything, the free flow of information that the Internet has allowed has resulted in the opposite of cultural uniformity, because once-isolated fringe ideas are now able to get broader hearings and larger followings. And historically, the parts of the world where different ideas have been free to mix and cross-pollinate, far from being melting pots that merged into homogeneity, have instead been the birthplaces of multiple new, competing philosophies and religions, as the different ideas have mixed and matched and clashed and reacted in a variety of different ways. When people have that many possible paths to choose from, there's no way in hell they're all going to mutually agree to head in the same direction. Cultural uniformity is only found in isolated areas where exposure to new ideas is limited.
The free flow of information hasn't led to cultural uniformity but it has led to secularism, tolerance and cultural cross-pollenation. The US and Japan have been stealing each others' ideas for 200 years. Kurosawa was influenced by the West, then Sergio Leone and George Lucas came along and blatantly copied Kurosawa. It may seem like a lot of religious governments are just harshly cracking down on dissent, but it's only because they saw the civil rights and equality debate starting to happen and got scared.

So you're right, we would not have one uniform culture throughout the whole galaxy. We might see lots of different cultures who mutually tolerate each other and copy each others' best ideas, who share a belief in individual freedoms and have open, friendly lines of communication to pursue common goals.
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Old June 25 2013, 02:50 AM   #36
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

Even if the Vaskans and Kyrians did make nice by the time the EMH-copy left their world, I can understand why they might not trust the Federation right away. Some of the memories of the fake-ship and fake-crew might be too realistic for them to stomach. They might still believe all that crap.
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Old June 25 2013, 03:25 AM   #37
Christopher
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
So you're right, we would not have one uniform culture throughout the whole galaxy. We might see lots of different cultures who mutually tolerate each other and copy each others' best ideas, who share a belief in individual freedoms and have open, friendly lines of communication to pursue common goals.
That's certainly a much more plausible and desirable scenario, and a truer one to Federation values, than a single uniform galaxy-wide Federation.
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Old June 25 2013, 11:30 AM   #38
Charles Phipps
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Again -- it's a vast galaxy with hundreds of millions of inhabited systems. Just ticking off the list of all the star systems they'd like to visit could easily take 700 years or more to finish. Maybe they've been meaning to go back to that system but just haven't gotten around to it yet, because the galaxy is insanely enormously gigantic.
I believe the use of Biogenic weapons was meant to imply that the locals were more or less annihilated. It's entirely possible the world has only recently reached warp travel levels again. It might also explain why things are so hostile as their nearest neigbors are the guys who plunged them into a planetary Dark Age.

Christopher wrote: View Post
That's certainly a much more plausible and desirable scenario, and a truer one to Federation values, than a single uniform galaxy-wide Federation.
Very possibly true. However, I generally am just speaking about how smaller groups get absorbed into larger ones all the time without it necessarily being a bad thing. I am mostly speaking of mutual exchange of ideas leading to a superior whole.

Cross-pollinating and hybridization.

If we joined a Federation, the countries of the world might merely become provinces but I imagine a leveling of "standard of living" as well as improved conditions for equal access to education as well as other supplies--which I presume would be standardized to "the best" as things improved.
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Old June 25 2013, 03:39 PM   #39
Christopher
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

^Again, you just can't compare the scale of a planet and the scale of an entire galaxy. Some things simply do not scale up. You can't expect to model the behavior of an entire ocean from the behavior of a raindrop.
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Old June 25 2013, 03:49 PM   #40
Charles Phipps
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Again, you just can't compare the scale of a planet and the scale of an entire galaxy. Some things simply do not scale up. You can't expect to model the behavior of an entire ocean from the behavior of a raindrop.
I understand what you're saying. I also think you cannot guess at what sort of reaction we'd see in space beyond Earth. Since we can only rely on Earth to gage how this would be, it our only POV.

Also, in Star Trek, we see monocultured planets all the time and that's evidence it'd be how it work in Trek.

But yeah, I'm going to concede. There's no way to know.
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Old June 25 2013, 08:51 PM   #41
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
one other problem?

where was this backup module for a near millenia?

Why wasnt he foun way before now?
As Quarren said in the episode, "Three weeks ago our research team found a data storage device buried nine meters beneath the ruins at Kesef. I've confirmed that it came from Voyager." Those ruins could've been abandoned for centuries, overgrown and buried in soil, and only later rediscovered and excavated. It happens all the time. Heck, I read a news item just today about a Maya city that's just been visited by archaeologists after being abandoned for 1200 years.
Heck, things don't have to be lost in an inaccessible jungle, an urban car park can hide Richard III. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-21063882

Or what about the City of Pomepii lost for cirac 1500 years. lost 79 AD rediscovered in 1599
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Old June 27 2013, 11:45 AM   #42
Lighthammer
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

RE: Charles Phipps's point regarding copy/paste
There's commentary floating around on youtube about this episode where Picardo himself actually shows off he knows a bit more than the average joe about computers.

He question Tim Russ (who was directing this episode) why Voyager magically had a backup module for this episode and there was no hints of it before or after.

The writers, along with Tim and the rest of the staff apparently just groaned at Picardo for being too logical about the whole situation and essentially told him to "just shut up and read the damned lines".

The sad fact is, we really can't read too much into what Voyager was talking about in regards to the computer science of thing because this little story actually outright proved the writers themselves didn't have a clue what they were talking about.

I suppose we could start trying to theorycraft reasons to shove this really misshapen puzzle piece in the wrong puzzle, but after the fact, its probably better we accept that this was used as a ploy for an episode or take a slightly safer route and make a leap that the module is in fact from another universe; preferably one where the sci-fi writers have at least read up on computer science theory 101 >.<

RE: Christopher's point regarding long standing conflicts
There's actually some interesting points along the way in history that I think do give some serious precedents to grudges lasting 700 years in Earth World History.

There's a lot of examples where tribes and nation states had long, long, long standing feuds between or nations who had long standing enemies.

Some great examples to pull from:
- Rome lasted approximately 500 years. It had LOTS of enemies.
- The Crusades (as mentioned earlier in the thread) lasted approximately 300 years between all three Crusades and that figure may or may not even include a lot of the skirmishes that existed for decades after the last set of Crusades (I'd need to do some research to double check myself on this one!) The actions of the Crusades still highly resonate today.
- The Iroquois Indians and Algonquian Indians to this day still consider themselves mortal enemies in many sects. That's a gruge lasting
- The Aztec empire was built, died and rebuilt again lasting conservatively around 350 years and they had enemies out the wazzu (I say conservatively because I think its a bit longer, but thats the best dates I get out of wiki skimming it).
- The Mongol Empire started by Gangis Khan lasted nearly 250 years and one could say between orderly transitions a lot longer.

My point is 700 years, while long, isn't really THAT long in the anals of history.
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Old June 27 2013, 12:40 PM   #43
Charles Phipps
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

One fact I found interesting about this episode is that it "proves" something Christopher said in another thread about shared enemies or "The Watchmen plan." If you get two enemies together and give them someone else to hate, they're not going to be suddenly bossom buddies.

I suspect Voyager was initially made the scapegoat for all of the horrific crimes done to the local population because it nicely let off the other race from the hook while still giving the locals someone to hate. They were conveinantly gone so everyone SHOULD have been able to put it in the past.

Except, as Chris says, the fundamental social issues (implied to include economic bias) still remained.

As a result, Voyager being Space NazisTM did nothing to alleviate the situation's true causes.

That's good writing.
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Old June 29 2013, 03:26 PM   #44
Lighthammer
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

Scapegoating something that it's highly probable you won't come in contact again is easily a convenient social plan and I *DO* have to applaud the premise therein.

After a fact, its highly conceivable Brannon Braga (Episode writer) thought up an a scenario where a few months (say 3, 6 or 9) after Voyager moved "out of hailing range" that they essentially became scapegoats for all the problems between the two civilizations.

After a fashion, history is riddled with scenarios where Gods were blamed for the troubles between two neighboring waring nations and cutting them out the picture or "scapegoating them" ended up easing tensions heavily.

Heck, all the way back in Season 1, we already had heard Voyager had a "bad rap" in similar capacities so this episode must have been sort of a climax for this theme.
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Old June 30 2013, 01:23 AM   #45
Ketrick
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

Christopher wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Really the concept a computer program can't be -copied- is silly anyways.
A program, sure. But a sentient consciousness is not a program, it's an emergent process. Even if you did copy the basic programming that defined its substrate level of activity and replicated its initial conditions as closely as you could, the mind that resulted when you actually ran it wouldn't be quite the same as the one that emerged the first time -- just as if you run a complex enough simulation more than once, you can get different results each time.

Also, if the Doctor's consciousness is based in quantum computing, then it probably wouldn't be copyable. Measuring quantum state information precisely enough to replicate it elsewhere -- i.e. quantum teleportation -- destroys the original information, due to quantum conservation laws.

So really, the Doctor having a backup at all is problematical, given that he was otherwise consistently portrayed as being unique, only able to be moved from one computer or emitter device to another rather than being copied. And in the later "Message in a Bottle," I think it was, Tom and Harry were struggling to create a backup as if they'd never had one before. So it's a tough episode to reconcile.
Yes, it would be difficult to create a backup, but not necessarily impossible. Also, "Message in a Bottle" was the 14th episode of the 4th season as well as having a lower production number and "Living Witness" was the 23rd episode so "Message in a Bottle" probably happened before "Living Witness". Therefore, one could theorize after The Doctor returned, Tom and Harry were able to create a backup, perhaps with B'Elanna's and/or Seven of Nine's help thus explaining away the seeming discrepancy. Also, considering the events of "The Swarm", it's unlikely Voyager originally had an EMH backup. Hence, unless a backup was created sometime between the events of "The Swarm" and "Living Witness" (which seems unlikely to me), there would have been no backup to steal if we are to believe the Kyrians stole the backup program at some point before "Message in a Bottle" and little onscreen reason or at least little onscreen worry about the consequences of The Doctor's program being stolen, damaged, being away for an extended length of time, et cetera before the scenes with Tom and Harry in MiaB.

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