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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old June 23 2013, 09:30 PM   #16
doctorfoto
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Re: Would Worf get into Sto Vo Kor?

A savvy Ferengi would be smart to open a "Heart of Your Enemies" chain of restaurants and position them outside of every Klingon Retirement Home.
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Old June 24 2013, 02:25 AM   #17
Pavonis
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Re: Would Worf get into Sto Vo Kor?

OK, if the necessary conditions for getting into Sto Vo Kor are dying in battle and eating the heart of an enemy, then is it necessary to do one then the other in quick succession? Or is doing each at least once in your lifetime sufficient? As for Worf, who can say whether he'll enter Sto Vo Kor? The character is still alive, and very well may die in battle yet. Then again, there's a chance he won't either. Maybe Klingons have other after lives other than Sto Vo Kor and the realm of the dishonored dead.
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Old June 24 2013, 06:38 PM   #18
TheRoyalFamily
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Re: Would Worf get into Sto Vo Kor?

Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
O'brien also pointed out she wasn't going to sto vo kor because she didn't eat the heart of one of her enemies. It wasn't just something specific to Kor. These are apparently requirements. Canon, stated in multiple episodes of ds9.
It's also canon that O'Brian doesn't know jack all about Klingon culture - he just repeats whatever scuttlebutt he hears.
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Old June 25 2013, 09:05 AM   #19
Vulcan Logician
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Re: Would Worf get into Sto Vo Kor?

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Vulcan Logician wrote: View Post
Sran wrote: View Post
Why is this even a question?

--Sran
Why is anything a question, Sran? Let's play along. My opinion is: YES. Because he is honorable and valorous. Political alliances have nothing to do with one's spiritual ascension. Plus, I'm sure that Worf ate a heart somewhere along the way. He just doesn't talk about it much.
Let's keep in mind that when we think of 'the fairness of entering'....that the specifics of getting in to Valhalla were pretty strict also. One may have won many a battle at one time, but ended up having a 'straw death' and...tough titty Teuton.
You know, I'm beginning to see your first point. It's hard to tell if Klingon religion is identical to the spiritual reality of what happens to the Klingon soul when it departs. As such, the pondering of such a question is apt to lead you in circles.
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Old June 25 2013, 09:19 AM   #20
R. Star
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Re: Would Worf get into Sto Vo Kor?

Sran wrote: View Post
Why is this even a question?

--Sran
Since apparently all it takes to condemn you to Gre'thor is a corrupt politician discommedating your family, at least according to Kurn, it seems perfectly valid.
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Old June 25 2013, 10:10 AM   #21
Zippo and Flask
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Re: Would Worf get into Sto Vo Kor?

He wouldn't get in because he touches himself at night.
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Old June 25 2013, 08:07 PM   #22
Sran
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Re: Would Worf get into Sto Vo Kor?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Since apparently all it takes to condemn you to Gre'thor is a corrupt politician discommedating your family, at least according to Kurn, it seems perfectly valid.
I don't know that I'd place much credibility in Kurn's statements. Besides, Worf wasn't the one in the wrong either time his family was dishonored.

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Old June 25 2013, 08:15 PM   #23
Pavonis
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Re: Would Worf get into Sto Vo Kor?

Why discount Kurn but listen to Worf? Of the two men, Kurn has practical knowledge of life and society in the empire, while Worf's is only theoretical and has an idealized view of Klingon lifestyles.

It occurs to me that the Council may well have religious power as well as social and political power. So discommendation is thorough, extending to the afterlife.
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Old June 25 2013, 08:29 PM   #24
TheRoyalFamily
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Re: Would Worf get into Sto Vo Kor?

StoVoKor is all about honor at the time you die. Honor is all about the perception of others. Thus, if one was discommended, that would be a dishonor, just or not, and it would definitely affect the afterlife as far as Klingons are concerned.

However, one can regain honor. Kurn was just being lame, seeking literally the path of least resistance to regaining some bit of honor.
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Old June 25 2013, 08:39 PM   #25
Sran
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Re: Would Worf get into Sto Vo Kor?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
It occurs to me that the Council may well have religious power as well as social and political power. So discommendation is thorough, extending to the afterlife.
Do our court systems have power over God? Whatever the Klingon High Council may have thought of Worf, it was their actions that were dishonorable, not his. Honor is not something to be bestowed or awarded as a matter of convenience. Real honor is gained by living a life of service, dedication, and compassion. To say that Worf did none of these things because the blowhards on the Council said so devalues the concept of Klingon honor.

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Old June 25 2013, 08:45 PM   #26
Pavonis
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Re: Would Worf get into Sto Vo Kor?

What does real life have to do with Klingons, Sran? Klingon honor isn't what humans think it is, despite Worf's domestication. If the Council says you're barred from Sto Vo Kor, well, then you're barred! What's a Klingon to do about it? Become an atheist, I suppose. Or a theist, maybe, by adopting the belief that the Klingon gods aren't dead, and therefore have the real final say on your disposition after death.
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Old June 25 2013, 09:08 PM   #27
Sran
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Re: Would Worf get into Sto Vo Kor?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
What does real life have to do with Klingons, Sran? Klingon honor isn't what humans think it is, despite Worf's domestication. If the Council says you're barred from Sto Vo Kor, well, then you're barred!
That wasn't my point. And for what it's worth, Klingon honor apparently isn't what Klingons think it is, given that most of them seem to have absolutely no honor.

--Sran
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Old June 25 2013, 09:22 PM   #28
Pavonis
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Re: Would Worf get into Sto Vo Kor?

And most Christians aren't as Christian as they could be. Every society has an ideal to aspire to but which the majority of members fail to achieve. So most Klingons aren't perfect, so what? Why did you bring up the question of our court system's relationship with God? What does anything in real life have to do with fictional alien societies? Why can't the Klingon Chancellor also be Klingon Chief Justice and Klingon Pope? Just because they're all separate in our society, they must be separate in all societies?
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Old June 25 2013, 09:28 PM   #29
Sran
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Re: Would Worf get into Sto Vo Kor?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Why did you bring up the question of our court system's relationship with God?
My point is that beings in the physical world don't necessarily have power over the spiritual, whatever their station in life may be. Just because a priest kicks someone out of the church doesn't mean that person can't make peace with God and still find a way into Heaven. By the same token, just because a psychopath like Gowron says that Worf has no honor doesn't mean that Worf's existence is suddenly worthless. Whatever Gowron's political position, he doesn't have real power over the Klingon afterlife.

--Sran
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Old June 25 2013, 09:34 PM   #30
Pavonis
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Re: Would Worf get into Sto Vo Kor?

Remember, Klingons killed their gods, so the only authorities over the afterlife are the Klingon leaders. We don't know if they have a Pope, so the Council very well may have the final say on who is qualified to enter Sto Vo Kor.
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