RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,610
Posts: 5,405,192
Members: 24,869
Currently online: 636
Newest member: Engelbert

TrekToday headlines

Star Trek: Gold Key Archives Vol. 2 Comic
By: T'Bonz on Oct 1

Cumberbatch In War Of Roses Miniseries
By: T'Bonz on Oct 1

Trek 3 Filming Location Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Oct 1

October-November 2014 Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

Cho Selfie TV Alert
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

TPTB To Shatner: Shhh!
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

Mystery Mini Vinyl Figure Display Box
By: T'Bonz on Sep 29

The Red Shirt Diaries Episode Five
By: T'Bonz on Sep 29

Shatner In Trek 3? Well Maybe
By: T'Bonz on Sep 28

Retro Review: Shadows and Symbols
By: Michelle on Sep 27


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 29 2013, 06:48 PM   #46
marksound
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Planet Carcazed
Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

ATimson wrote: View Post
Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Playing a Vulcan is extremely difficult as we've seen for nearly 50 years. To deliver dialog in a near deadpan and still be interesting must be extremely frustrating for an actor. To date, only two have pulled it off perfectly: Nimoy, who defined the Vulcan demeanor, and Mark Lenard. Others who were cast as Vulcans were at best trying to copy the two best examples.
You don't think Tim Russ was in the same league as Nimoy and Lenard?
I really don't. Sorry.
marksound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 29 2013, 07:23 PM   #47
ATimson
Rear Admiral
 
ATimson's Avatar
 
Location: Andrew Timson
Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
ATimson wrote: View Post
You don't think Tim Russ was in the same league as Nimoy and Lenard?
I really don't. Sorry.
No need to apologize. It's a perfectly valid opinion, even if I don't agree. I was simply wondering whether that was indeed your opinion of Russ, or if you'd just overlooked him.
__________________
Andrew Timson
===============
"Niceness is the greatest human flaw, except for all the others." - Brendan Moody

"...don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido
ATimson is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 29 2013, 07:29 PM   #48
G2309
Captain
 
G2309's Avatar
 
View G2309's Twitter Profile
Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

I thought it was Gene Rodenberry who thought Saviik wouldn't betray them. Nick Meyer thought he knew the character better though as he created her.
__________________
For parodies check out

http://wondersandparodies.blogspot.c...y-scripts.html
G2309 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 29 2013, 07:56 PM   #49
Tomalak
Vice Admiral
 
Tomalak's Avatar
 
Location: Liverpool
View Tomalak's Twitter Profile
Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

ATimson wrote: View Post
Carcazoid wrote: View Post
ATimson wrote: View Post
You don't think Tim Russ was in the same league as Nimoy and Lenard?
I really don't. Sorry.
No need to apologize. It's a perfectly valid opinion, even if I don't agree. I was simply wondering whether that was indeed your opinion of Russ, or if you'd just overlooked him.
They key to playing Vulcans is not to play them as emotionless robots. It's not that they don't have emotions like Data, it's that they have incredibly strong emotions bubbling under a tightly controlled veneer of logic and self-control. Nimoy was the master, and Lenard was superb too - and I think Quinto and Ben Cross did well too. Kirstie Alley and Kim Catrall got it as well.

Russ, however, too often played Tuvok like a robot. I don't know if it's his limitations as an actor or the writing, though I suspect it's a bit of both. Same with Robin Curtis, though in her case it's definitely more of the former.
__________________
She bought her first new car and you hit her with a drunk driver. What, is that supposed to be funny?
Tomalak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 29 2013, 07:56 PM   #50
Mojochi
Commodore
 
Mojochi's Avatar
 
Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

I think what Made Kirstie Alley's Saavik better than Curtis' WAS that she wasn't as Vulcan acting. That seemed to be the whole point of the character in the 1st place, & why she's shown tearing up at the funeral. It isn't just that she's another Vulcan in Starfleet. It's that she's Spock's protege. Spock being half Human would logically have a protege within whom he can see something of himself, & that half of himself that he now recognizes is of value in dealing with such varied beings as he does

"Logic is only the beginning" is what he says to Valeris. This is why Curtis' interpretation of Saavik was not on the mark imho, & the character of Valeris WAS fit to that Saavik mold to a degree, though they retweaked it a bit.

So no, I don't think they should have tried to bring Curtis in to play it, but I might have been willing to entertain the recast of Saavik with Cattrail if they couldn't score Alley. However, Cattrail would have needed to drop some of the pomposity in her performance of Valeris in order to give the right performance as Saavik, and I could see why she might not want to have to
Mojochi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 29 2013, 08:00 PM   #51
Tomalak
Vice Admiral
 
Tomalak's Avatar
 
Location: Liverpool
View Tomalak's Twitter Profile
Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

^Yeah, great points. It's a shame Saavik's Romulan heritage never made it into the film, because it does help to show why she was Spock's protege. They were alike, both aspiring to live and be treated as Vulcans, yet struggling with their own self-identity and heritage.
__________________
She bought her first new car and you hit her with a drunk driver. What, is that supposed to be funny?
Tomalak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 29 2013, 08:09 PM   #52
Mojochi
Commodore
 
Mojochi's Avatar
 
Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

Good point^

Oh... I should also add that I would in deed have preferred if they had used Saavik as the traitor. It would have made for a more profound plot twist, & would have done away with Valeris being a rather useless character in the grand scheme
Mojochi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 29 2013, 09:49 PM   #53
marksound
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Planet Carcazed
Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

Mojochi wrote: View Post
I think what Made Kirstie Alley's Saavik better than Curtis' WAS that she wasn't as Vulcan acting. That seemed to be the whole point of the character in the 1st place, & why she's shown tearing up at the funeral. It isn't just that she's another Vulcan in Starfleet. It's that she's Spock's protege. Spock being half Human would logically have a protege within whom he can see something of himself, & that half of himself that he now recognizes is of value in dealing with such varied beings as he does

"Logic is only the beginning" is what he says to Valeris. This is why Curtis' interpretation of Saavik was not on the mark imho, & the character of Valeris WAS fit to that Saavik mold to a degree, though they retweaked it a bit.

So no, I don't think they should have tried to bring Curtis in to play it, but I might have been willing to entertain the recast of Saavik with Cattrail if they couldn't score Alley. However, Cattrail would have needed to drop some of the pomposity in her performance of Valeris in order to give the right performance as Saavik, and I could see why she might not want to have to
It just struck me that she might have played it that way intentionally, to show the arrogance of youth in contrast to the humility and wisdom that tends to (or should) come with age and experience.

"Logic is only the beginning ... "
marksound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 30 2013, 01:33 AM   #54
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Location: t'girl
Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

Mojochi wrote: View Post
I think what Made Kirstie Alley's Saavik better than Curtis' WAS that she wasn't as Vulcan acting.
With due respect to Nimoy, Alley received better direction than Curtis. At least as I understand it, Nimoy instructed Curtis to play Saavik completely emotionless.

Another good portrait of a Vulcan (although I can't remember her name) is the Vulcan woman who was buying weapons for the maquis from Quark, I thought she (the actress) got it just right.

__________________
.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares shall farm for those who retained their swords
T'Girl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 30 2013, 03:05 AM   #55
Bad Atom
Commodore
 
Bad Atom's Avatar
 
Location: Ohio
View Bad Atom's Twitter Profile
Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

Aldo wrote: View Post
Bad Atom wrote: View Post
Since Kirstie Alley was out of the film's price range, Nick Meyer should have just had Robin Curtis reprise the role and been done with it.
From what I recall Meyer didn't care for Curtis as Saavik at all. So that was never an option for him.
That's a shame. He probably could have gotten a better performance out of Curtis, perhaps had her play it a little more emotional. And the audience's familiarity with her would have made her betrayal even stronger.

The road not taken and all that...
Bad Atom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 30 2013, 10:58 AM   #56
Mojochi
Commodore
 
Mojochi's Avatar
 
Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Mojochi wrote: View Post
I think what Made Kirstie Alley's Saavik better than Curtis' WAS that she wasn't as Vulcan acting.
With due respect to Nimoy, Alley received better direction than Curtis. At least as I understand it, Nimoy instructed Curtis to play Saavik completely emotionless.
That could have played a factor. When you see Curtis in TNG's Gambit though, something in her performance of that character also makes me feel she wouldn't have done well with Savvik as Alley played it. Curtis is just a little too edgy or something. Cattrail not so much
Mojochi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 1 2013, 12:34 AM   #57
Belz...
Fleet Captain
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Location: In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

For what it's worth, although I like Alley, I think Curtis had more of a Vulcan quality to her. And she played the character the two previous times we saw her.

G2309 wrote: View Post
I thought it was Gene Rodenberry who thought Saviik wouldn't betray them. Nick Meyer thought he knew the character better though as he created her.
One of the flaws of VI to me is that once you know there's a traitor on board, it's not surprising that it's the new girl. The character is invented for the movie for the sole purpose of being a villain, which I find unfortunate. I'd call it lazy writing if I didn't know it was Roddenberry's fault.
__________________
And that's my opinion.

Last edited by Belz...; July 1 2013 at 11:21 AM.
Belz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 1 2013, 12:23 PM   #58
DrBeverly
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

I wonder if anyone other than dedicated fans would have remembered Saavik, come ST VI? My feeling is that, even with bringing the character back, she would still feel like the 'new girl', and therefore the obvious traitor.
DrBeverly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 1 2013, 01:30 PM   #59
Trek Survivor
Captain
 
Location: UK
Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

DrBeverly wrote: View Post
I wonder if anyone other than dedicated fans would have remembered Saavik, come ST VI? My feeling is that, even with bringing the character back, she would still feel like the 'new girl', and therefore the obvious traitor.
Agreed. Remember, she was barely in IV.

They were always going to have this problem unless it was one of the seven main cast members - the idea of it being Chekov fascinates me.
__________________
Want an awesome read? Check out "Showdown: A Darker Evil Rising" on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Showdown-Darke...er+evil+rising
Trek Survivor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 2 2013, 06:01 PM   #60
Timby
GIVE ME YOUR FACE
 
Timby's Avatar
 
Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

Belz... wrote: View Post
For what it's worth, although I like Alley, I think Curtis had more of a Vulcan quality to her. And she played the character the two previous times we saw her.

G2309 wrote: View Post
I thought it was Gene Rodenberry who thought Saviik wouldn't betray them. Nick Meyer thought he knew the character better though as he created her.
One of the flaws of VI to me is that once you know there's a traitor on board, it's not surprising that it's the new girl. The character is invented for the movie for the sole purpose of being a villain, which I find unfortunate. I'd call it lazy writing if I didn't know it was Roddenberry's fault.
Except, and this has already been pointed out in this thread, it wasn't Roddenberry's fault. Roddenberry had fuck-all authority over Star Trek after The Motion Picture. He had an office, he received a nice paycheck and he was allowed to see and comment on all film script drafts ... and then the producers were free to completely ignore those comments. He had no creative control whatsoever.
Timby is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
kisrtie alley, robin curtis, saavik, star trek vi, the undiscovered country, valeris

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:10 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.