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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old June 23 2013, 05:51 PM   #16
Timo
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Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

revealing Chekov as the traitor would have logically written him out of the potential next film.
Would it? After one bold step, another one could have followed. In ST6:TUC, Kirk and friends essentially made themselves redundant: they are the embodiment of the old school that has to retire before the new age of peace can begin. Their fate might not have been all that different from that of the exposed and convicted Chekov. Ashes of Eden was about post-Starfleet heroes anyway, and a story like that could easily have accommodated a traitorous Chekov in a redeeming role.

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Old June 23 2013, 08:26 PM   #17
Allyn Gibson
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Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

Timo wrote: View Post
Their fate might not have been all that different from that of the exposed and convicted Chekov. Ashes of Eden was about post-Starfleet heroes anyway, and a story like that could easily have accommodated a traitorous Chekov in a redeeming role.
I suppose it's possible. It depends on the length of the prison sentence the agent aboard the Enterprise would receive. Valeris was likely to spend a long time incarcerated for her role in Gorkon's assassination. I see no reason why an alt-Chekov would not have as well.
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Old June 23 2013, 08:29 PM   #18
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Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

I seem to recall there were rumours of some talk about Chekov being the traitor.

But, the decision was made that such a radical step would have been roundly turned on by fandom, and such a backlash may have harmed the box office (I remember there was actually a campaign to boycott TSFS simply because the Enterprise was destroyed, so this would have certainly been a serious concern).

I could see Koenig relishing such a role though!
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Old June 23 2013, 09:07 PM   #19
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Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

Watching the scene in the movie theatre - I remember worryin for a moment Chekov might be the traitor especially in the scene when he finds the blood on the transporter pad.

Not sure if its the directing or the acting but he comes across very shifty.

I remember breathing a sigh of relief when he told Spock about it.
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Old June 23 2013, 09:26 PM   #20
Timo
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Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

It depends on the length of the prison sentence the agent aboard the Enterprise would receive.
TOS appeared to establish that there are no prison sentences in the future (except with barbaric primitives like Klingons). Just enough time spent in an insane asylum that you get cured of your urge to re-commit this specific crime, after which you can go on with a life of your own choosing.

It would have been a shame to have a Trek movie contradict that fine piece of weird science fiction...

...And a treat to see Chekov emerge from the asylum all reformed, joining our heroic crew once more. Especially if he had previously been pointing a gun at Kirk's head or something.

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Old June 23 2013, 09:40 PM   #21
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Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

I'm happy with the way it ended up. Kim Cattrall was a good choice.

There was one scene though, where she turns with a bounce and almost smiles. Was that the gravity boots scene?
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Old June 23 2013, 09:53 PM   #22
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Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

Carcazoid wrote: View Post

There was one scene though, where she turns with a bounce and almost smiles. Was that the gravity boots scene?
Yes, it's right when they find who the Gravity boots belong to. She slaps them on the locker and gives off a little smirk.
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Old June 23 2013, 10:28 PM   #23
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Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

...Would have instantly made it a better film.

Though this depends on them having actually gone on with the Saavik is half Romulan sub-plot.

The big missing link in Valeris's arc is motive. While being half-Romulan doesn't inherently make her a traitor, it does offer reason as to why she might do it. And having her as the "new guy" just weakens the whole thing even more. But then I suppose it's better than if they had made her a red herring.

Of course, the plot (in whole) is missing a motive. The "We might lose our jobs because the director branded this motley crew of intrepid explorers a military!" excuse just doesn't fly. At all. The lack of motive is really the only thing that held the film back from being one of the great sci-fi films of all time. And the gravity boots.

Also, head of security not securing.
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Old June 23 2013, 11:42 PM   #24
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Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
The big missing link in Valeris's arc is motive. While being half-Romulan doesn't inherently make her a traitor, it does offer reason as to why she might do it. And having her as the "new guy" just weakens the whole thing even more. But then I suppose it's better than if they had made her a red herring.
The motive is the same as Cartwright's. She logically saw it as a chance to bring the Klingons to their knees, thus eliminating a potential threat to the Federation at a stroke. She might have had a starkly different interpretation of logic to Spock - much more utilitarian - but that doesn't mean her actions weren't logical to her.

The scene in Spock's quarters basically reveals that - Valeris sees logic as the be-all and end-all, whereas Spock has the experience to understand that logic is only a part of wisdom. There's no reason to believe that all Vulcans are pacifist vegetarians like Spock is there?
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Old June 24 2013, 01:25 AM   #25
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Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

"If there were a reason, my father is quite capable of killing--logically and efficiently."
--Spock, "Journey to Babel"
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Old June 24 2013, 01:57 AM   #26
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Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

Mysterion wrote: View Post
either actor probably would have worked just fine. Having Saavik play that part in the story would have had a lot more dramatic impact and made for a much better movie.
Agreed. Cattrall did a great job as Valeris, but having Saavik turn traitor would have been much more gut-wrenching and dramatic.

(And, in an ideal world, Saavik would have been played by Alley.)
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Old June 24 2013, 02:06 AM   #27
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Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

Tomalak wrote: View Post
The scene in Spock's quarters basically reveals that - Valeris sees logic as the be-all and end-all, whereas Spock has the experience to understand that logic is only a part of wisdom. There's no reason to believe that all Vulcans are pacifist vegetarians like Spock is there?
Not at all. As much as Vulcans are depicted as a uniform civilization, it's important to remember that even a species that focuses so intently on logic and mental discipline is bound to have individuals who either reject or misinterpret their applications.

The irony of having a character like Valeris appear in a movie that follows Sybok's appearance can't be ignored: Sybok rejected logic in favor of emotion, whereas Valeris misunderstood the applications of logic in the real world. Whether her error is the result of inexperience, fear, or both isn't clear, but she definitely lacks the wisdom and thoughtfulness of Spock.

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Old June 24 2013, 02:15 AM   #28
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Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

If anyone is interested, Cast No Shadow by James Swallow is a very good novel about Valeris that goes more into her motives and picks up six years after the events of the movie.
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Old June 27 2013, 12:22 AM   #29
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Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

My word, I had no idea before that the TUC script was written with Valeris' dialogue originally intended for Saavik, with some mere 'find and replace' editting when Saavik was replaced. Frankly, I'd rather they'd recast the character a second time, and made a passing injoke or something. (They couldn't have really made the film less campy without major rewrites, let's be honest.)

http://www.scifiscripts.com/scripts/...ar_Trek_VI.htm
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Old June 27 2013, 04:04 PM   #30
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Re: If VI had featured Saavik instead of Valeris as the traitor

But then there would be 3 different actresses to play Saavik in 3 movies.
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