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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 21 2013, 04:53 PM   #16
BillJ
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Re: It's weird, I have only one complaint about ST (2009)...

Lance wrote: View Post

But Spock's petulant response, inner turmoil or no inner turmoil, rings untrue to me. It isn't so much that it's "making fun of Roddenberry's philosophy" as it is I'd imagine that Nimoy's Spock (you know, the guy who tried to broker peace with Klingons?) would have been in favor of the proposition. He may not have liked what Nero had done, but he'd put it aside. As Kirk said, that would be the logical thing to do.
But this Spock really isn't Prime Spock, he's a man who has faced the destruction of his world and literally watched his mother slip away. Plus, the Spock who tried to negotiate peace with the Klingons is nearly fifty-years older.

So, I can definitely understand this Spock not being inclined to save someone who killed six billion plus beings.
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Old June 21 2013, 04:59 PM   #17
Charles Phipps
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Re: It's weird, I have only one complaint about ST (2009)...

I'm not disputing that, under the circumstances, we can forgive NSpock for a moment of saying, "**** these guys, **** their ship, and **** their survival/dignity as sentient beings." It's a very human moment and, again, hilarious.

I also think that NKirk offering him the hand of survival (if followed by arrest) was a little TOO mature for NKirk, given we know he's the most immature man in the Quadrant. So, having Spock rather easily talk him out of it was good.

It's just I felt the scene was kind of "there" and seemed to be rejoicing in destroying an enemy when Star Trek usually rises above that. It's why I prefer Into Darkness, as Kirk taking Khan prisoner and putting him in cryostasis for the rest of his life works on both a justice level as well as a personal retribution one.

(Admittedly, Khan's crimes were a far lesser magnitude)
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Old June 21 2013, 05:04 PM   #18
BillJ
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Re: It's weird, I have only one complaint about ST (2009)...

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
It's why I prefer Into Darkness, as Kirk taking Khan prisoner and putting him in cryostasis for the rest of his life works on both a justice level as well as a personal retribution one.

(Admittedly, Khan's crimes were a far lesser magnitude)
Well, we don't know who decided Khan's fate. I'd imagine that decision was likely made at a pay grade far higher than Kirk's.

And I'm not sure how keeping Khan as a popsicle is justice. That honestly seems a bit cruel to me.
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Old June 21 2013, 05:13 PM   #19
Lance
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Re: It's weird, I have only one complaint about ST (2009)...

I appreciate the reason for Spock's emotive response. But I also quite like that Kirk threw the offer out there to Nero anyway. At least on Kirk's part, it was definitely a maturing of the character.

The real bottom line is that it shows Kirk has got real integrity as a Starfleet officer (or should I say he has the potential for real integrity as a Starfleet officer?), but the fact that Nero refuses the offer outright pretty much means Kirk and his crew have got the right to take the battle all the way to the endgame. It's the pivotal moment for Kirk, because Nero's refusal confirms his irrationality, and Kirk realizes once and for all that Nero isn't going to stop no matter what. So the Enterprise will just have to do whatever's necessary.

As you can tell I actually like the scene a lot, but it might have been better - more subtle? - if Spock had simply raised a very quizzical eyebrow at Kirk's offer, rather than speaking out so openly against it. Admittedly it wasn't a moment that called for a particular subtlety.
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Old June 21 2013, 09:58 PM   #20
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Re: It's weird, I have only one complaint about ST (2009)...

Shazam! wrote: View Post
The red matter was on destruction mode at that point. Send back in time mode had been disabled.
How do you know it doesn't always do both, depending on how you enter the singularity ?

To the OP, it doesn't bother me too much. Given the circumstances, I understand Spock's objections.
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Old June 22 2013, 08:46 PM   #21
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Re: It's weird, I have only one complaint about ST (2009)...

Belz... wrote: View Post
How do you know it doesn't always do both, depending on how you enter the singularity ?
I'd imagine it still would, just in a million pieces. It's possible that the debris from Vulcan traveled through time as well.

But I think the point was that the red matter black holes were so magical and beyond what we actually know of as black holes, that they really only did what they needed to (stop "supernovas", travel in time, implode planets, attack enemy ships, etc.) They weren't given that much thought.
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Old June 22 2013, 09:06 PM   #22
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Re: It's weird, I have only one complaint about ST (2009)...

Lance wrote: View Post
I have to agree with the OP. I loved the movie, there's almost nothing else I'd change about it. But that scene... I think it's very Star Trek for Kirk to at least offer Nero the chance to surrender peacefully. It's something Prime Kirk would have done, and to me it's the moment when NuKirk shows how much he's matured since the beginning of the movie.

But Spock's petulant response, inner turmoil or no inner turmoil, rings untrue to me. It isn't so much that it's "making fun of Roddenberry's philosophy" as it is I'd imagine that Nimoy's Spock (you know, the guy who tried to broker peace with Klingons?) would have been in favor of the proposition. He may not have liked what Nero had done, but he'd put it aside. As Kirk said, that would be the logical thing to do.

Of course, seeing as Nero immediately threw Kirk's offer back in his face, he was asking for an ass-kicking.

it rang true to me. And Nimoy's Spock wasn't some naive fool(look at "balance of terror" or "errand of mercy") he was a pragmatist. Negotiating with dovish Klingons is prgamatism.

Making offers and deals with genocidal madmen is not pragmatism, it's stupid.
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Old June 23 2013, 01:13 AM   #23
Therin of Andor
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Re: It's weird, I have only one complaint about ST (2009)...

sonak wrote: View Post
Making offers and deals with genocidal madmen is not pragmatism, it's stupid.

"I... have had... enough... of yoooooouuuu!"


(Audience cheers!)
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Old June 24 2013, 12:09 PM   #24
I am not Spock
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Re: It's weird, I have only one complaint about ST (2009)...

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Making offers and deals with genocidal madmen is not pragmatism, it's stupid.

"I... have had... enough... of yoooooouuuu!"


(Audience cheers!)
Yeah, and prime Kirk gave Kruge a chance. He offered to give him his hand. Kruge spat it back in his face.

So Nu Kirk's actions, despite being in an alternate timeline with a different life, are consistent
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